And all 100 per cent of Yankee hitters were hit intentionally!

Reggie Sanders: "I knew it!"

100% of Don Zimmers flipped over were on purpose.

José Guillen points his bat at this swipe in a fit of seething rage.

This will always be the most memorable Pedro HBP for me. It was apparently on a 1-2 pitch, which seems strange for an intentional HBP, but at the time it seemed like there was no question that it was intentional. It seemed like Pedro enjoyed opening a game that way sometimes.

I'm guessing he's overstating for the story of it.

I'm guessing he's overstating for the story of it.

If he is, I doubt it's by much.

I generally try to avoid guessing the motivation behind the individual HBP, but it was pretty obvious on most of Pedro's (in part becuase he had such great control/command).

Maybe 90 percent weren't intentional HBPs, but probably 90 percent were either intentional or indifferent to that outcome.

70% of the time, Pedro won every time.

In 2000, Pedro had 32 walks . . . and 14 HBP. It's almost as though he used them in lieu of the intentional walk.

It's almost as though he used them in lieu of the intentional walk.

Gotta admit, it does keep the pitch count down.

Only hit a guy on purpose once. First time up the guy leans into a 1-2 curveball and gets hit. Next time up I aim a fastball for the middle of his back, somehow he contorts himself such that it catches him square on the elbow. It looked really painful. Honestly, it was pretty satisfying at the time.

Ichiro also could have hit batters intentionally if he wanted to.

#9 People have mused about this for some time. Stan Williams actually mused about doing so (while active) in an interview. Williams also kept a notebook so he could keep track of who was "owed" a HBP.

Interesting commentary, and I can just imagine a similar set of amused or benign reactions if this had been Clemens or Joba rather than Pedro making such an admission. (/sarcasm)

Well you know the Yankees were asking for it.

Well you know the Yankees were asking for it.

Exactly.

I've always considered "brushbacks" a part of baseball, and I'm not knocking Pedro for simply admitting the obvious. But whenever Joba plunked one of those Carmine hosed darlings, the indignation level here approached JoePa levels. Funny how when Hub hero Pedro admits doing exactly what Yankee pitchers have been accused of doing, the only reaction is a duel of witty responses.

Well Joba is a mediocre middle reliever, so yeah, I'm guessing people wouldn't be amused by that. And Clemens is one of the all-time great ############# in sports history, so, you know, ditto. But if this were Rivera, or somebody actually interesting, I doubt people would be too upset.

Well Joba is a mediocre middle reliever, so yeah, I'm guessing people wouldn't be amused by that.

Why should that matter? A mediocre middle reliever has every bit as much right, and far more need, to brush people back as Pedro.

This is simply people who like Pedro covering for him being an ***hole.

This is simply people who like Pedro covering for him being an ***hole.

Right, that was actually my point. Joba is a nonentity, Clemens is an #######, and people like Pedro. You just said it shorter than me.

I've always considered "brushbacks" a part of baseball, and I'm not knocking Pedro for simply admitting the obvious. But whenever Joba plunked one of those Carmine hosed darlings, the indignation level here approached JoePa levels. Funny how when Hub hero Pedro admits doing exactly what Yankee pitchers have been accused of doing, the only reaction is a duel of witty responses.

Maybe I am misremembering but did Pedro throw at people's heads? I do seem to recall Joba doing this...

And when was Clemens blasted for throwing at people (bat-throwing incidents not included)?

Perhpas it's because Pedro's control usually produced "contact" on the first try, while Joba often needed several attempts, amking the intent seem that much more obvious. And for Red Sox fans, Clemens became inherently evil once he left the team, coloring their view of anything he did.

Interesting commentary, and I can just imagine a similar set of amused or benign reactions if this had been Clemens or Joba rather than Pedro making such an admission. (/sarcasm)

By the numbers, it's much more obvious that Pedro was throwing at batters than Clemens or Joba, making this more of a "well, yeah" situation. I took a quick look at HBP for all three pitchers, along with batters faced, wild pitches, and walks (trying to get a numerical sense of HBP as intentional rather than as a function of control).

Of the three, Pedro hit batters at the highest rate, hitting 1.23% of the batters he faced. Clemens hit 0.79%, and Joba hit 1.10%.

Pedro hit 2.27 batters for every wild pitch, compared to 1.11 for Clemens and 1.19 for Joba.

Pedro hit 0.19 batters for every walk he issued, compared to 0.10 for Clemens and 0.12 for Joba.

I remember running the numbers more extensively a few years ago, and found that Clemens didn't hit a disproportionate number of batters as a percentage of batters faced or by comparison to his overall control numbers, but that Pedro was off the charts high. Clemens has a reputation as a headhunter because he wasn't afraid to brush a hitter back and because of one high-profile beaning. Pedro really did throw at hitters pretty consistently.

Maybe I am misremembering but did Pedro throw at people's heads? I do seem to recall Joba doing this...

What you seem to recall is Joba throwing high and inside, which pitchers have been doing since forever. AFAICR he's never beaned anyone.

And when was Clemens blasted for throwing at people (bat-throwing incidents not included)?

Read some of those threads devoted to Clemens and Piazza and see if near-homicidal intent on Clemens' part isn't practically assumed to be a part of his character.

-----------------------------------------------

Perhaps it's because Pedro's control usually produced "contact" on the first try, while Joba often needed several attempts, making the intent seem that much more obvious. And for Red Sox fans, Clemens became inherently evil once he left the team, coloring their view of anything he did.

That's pretty much it, though obviously not all Red Sox fans are of the same mindset about it.

Andy: Interesting commentary, and I can just imagine a similar set of amused or benign reactions if this had been Clemens or Joba rather than Pedro making such an admission. (/sarcasm)

YR: Well you know the Yankees were asking for it.

Your persecution complexes are adorable.

By the numbers, it's much more obvious that Pedro was throwing at batters than Clemens or Joba, making this more of a "well, yeah" situation. I took a quick look at HBP for all three pitchers, along with batters faced, wild pitches, and walks (trying to get a numerical sense of HBP as intentional rather than as a function of control).

Of the three, Pedro hit batters at the highest rate, hitting 1.23% of the batters he faced. Clemens hit 0.79%, and Joba hit 1.10%.

Pedro hit 2.27 batters for every wild pitch, compared to 1.11 for Clemens and 1.19 for Joba.

Pedro hit 0.19 batters for every walk he issued, compared to 0.10 for Clemens and 0.12 for Joba.

I remember running the numbers more extensively a few years ago, and found that Clemens didn't hit a disproportionate number of batters as a percentage of batters faced or by comparison to his overall control numbers, but that Pedro was off the charts high. Clemens has a reputation as a headhunter because he wasn't afraid to brush a hitter back and because of one high-profile beaning. Pedro really did throw at hitters pretty consistently.

And yet in spite of what these numbers clearly demonstrate, the indignation here gets directed almost solely at Clemens and Joba. I suppose intentionally throwing at a batter's elbow or knee is kosher as long as you're the cute and cuddly Pedro, and as long as you're wearing a Red Sox uniform.

the indignation here gets directed almost solely at Clemens and Joba.

I note that this thread has been composed about 40% of Yankee fan indignation. So there you go. Balance.

Your persecution complexes are adorable.

Matt, I don't give a flying #### that Pedro was throwing at batters, but I am amused at anyone who tries to say that "that's different" than Joba or Clemens in so many ways. I'm just pointing out the obvious disconnect between the reaction of Red Sox fans to Pedro's admitted actions and the persecution complexes they exhibited whenever Joba threw high and inside to one of their heroes.

If a pitcher exhibits a pattern of throwing behind a batter's front shoulder, then he arguably deserves a reputation as a headhunter. Because that's the most proven way of actually bringing home a trophy. But neither Pedro nor Joba nor Clemens ever exhibited any such pattern of behavior, which is why I don't feel any particular indignation towards any of them. AFAIC if anyone tries to make some sort of moral distinctions among those three, their fanboy colors are showing.

I note that this thread has been composed about 40% of Yankee fan indignation. So there you go. Balance.

Nice to see that all those prior threads about Joba the Headhunter have been Trotskyized out of memory.

My favorite was not a HBP, but a pickoff. I think it was against the Cubs, maybe the first year as an Expo. You knew Pedro J. was going to nail the batter. Nope, an easy walk. Then a fastball into the side of the baserunner as the Expo 1B was backing up the play rather than in position to apply a pickoff tag. I think Pedro J. was tossed.

2 questions:

Was Joba known as a headhunter, or was it just his repeated throwing at Youkilis?

Who is Karim Garcia?

Matt, I don't give a flying #### that Pedro was throwing at batters, but I am amused at anyone who tries to say that "that's different" than Joba or Clemens in so many ways. I'm just pointing out the obvious disconnect between the reaction of Red Sox fans to Pedro's admitted actions and the persecution complexes they exhibited whenever Joba threw high and inside to one of their heroes.

If a pitcher exhibits a pattern of throwing behind a batter's front shoulder, then he arguably deserves a reputation as a headhunter. Because that's the most proven way of actually bringing home a trophy. But neither Pedro nor Joba nor Clemens ever exhibited any such pattern of behavior, which is why I don't feel any particular indignation towards any of them. AFAIC if anyone tries to make some sort of moral distinctions among those three, their fanboy colors are showing.

I don't understand. Who has done that here?

I don't understand. Who has done that here?

I'm talking about the contrast between the first 13 comments on this thread and the outrage exhibited by Red Sox fans against Joba's "headhunting" in many threads prior to this one.

Matt, I don't give a flying #### that Pedro was throwing at batters, but I am amused at anyone who tries to say that "that's different" than Joba or Clemens in so many ways.

Concur. Pitchers have a right to pitch inside. If a hitter hangs over the plate, he deserves to get hit. Jeter deserved every one of those pitches he too off the hands. He dives like a French soccer player.

But, nothing Joba or Clemens, or any other pitcher did in throwing up and in is any worse (or better) than what Pedro did.

People here (esp. Sox fans) just find Pedro cute, and Clemens and Joba loathsome.

And yet in spite of what these numbers clearly demonstrate, the indignation here gets directed almost solely at Clemens and Joba. I suppose intentionally throwing at a batter's elbow or knee is kosher as long as you're the cute and cuddly Pedro, and as long as you're wearing a Red Sox uniform.

You do realize these numbers were posted by a Red Sox fan? I mean, I love Pedro (and never hated Clemens; I blame Duquette for his departure), but he undeniably threw at people.

By interesting coincidence, this story just ran it today's NY Times:

Now Batting: A Stronger, Mandatory Helmet

You do realize these numbers were posted by a Red Sox fan? I mean, I love Pedro (and never hated Clemens; I blame Duquette for his departure), but he undeniably threw at people.

Chris, I do appreciate your take, not to mention the time it took to bring up those numbers. Not all Red Sox fans are guilty of double standards, though during some of those earlier Joba threads it might almost have appeared that way.

In 2000, Pedro had 32 walks . . . and 14 HBP. It's almost as though he used them in lieu of the intentional walk.

That's an absolutely amazing stat.

People here (esp. Sox fans) just find Pedro cute, and Clemens and Joba loathsome.

People in Green Bay also think Lambeau field is better than Soldier field.

Any other breaking news, Kronkite?

Pedro is undeniably, objectively, far cuter than Clemens or Joba.

My all-time Pedro brushback/knockdown was the one on Shemp in the 2004 ALCS. Unless I'm misremembering, Matsui was at that
point like .600/.800/1.500 for the Series, and then pretty much an oh-fer afterwards.

Maybe you oughta stick that one in your, ahem, video collection, Spanky? Maybe not.

Edit: Upon research, Matsui cooled down considerably, but not quite as drastically as I had thought, although he did go 1-10 in
the games 5-6. Pedro also hit Arod and Cairo in Game 5. Arod had been killing the Sox up to that point as well, then went ice cold
for a few years worth of postseasons, until his big 2009.

My all-time Pedro brushback/knockdown was the one on Shemp in the 2004 ALCS. Unless I'm misremembering, Matsui was at that
point like .600/.800/1.500 for the Series, and then pretty much an oh-fer afterwards.

I've got to be the only Yankee fan that 2004 doesn't bother one bit.

I actively loathed that incarnation of the Yankees. I especially enjoyed seeing the "Immaculate" Rivera cough up the series, after the continuous tongue-baths he had gotten. Not to mention Brown and Vazquez showing their true colors.

My only regret is that it wasn't the A's or some team I sort of like that did it to the Yanks.

Pedro had a headhunter rep as far back as the Expos, btw. As a famous Sox employee said, paraphrasing, "Many of the all-time great
pitchers were notorious pr1cks."

As a famous Sox employee said, paraphrasing, "Many of the all-time great
pitchers were notorious pr1cks."

Concur. Pedro's a prick, and should be viewed that way, just like Clemens.

The issue is the tendency to excuse the Red Sox pricks (Pedro, Manny) as "colorful" or "Manny being Manny".

No. They're ***holes just like the Yankee ***holes.

Let's just admit we root for the laundry, and will almost always excuse an ***hole on our team if he's good enough.

I know I enjoyed Reggie's home runs while vociferously booing his Ks, b/c I hated his guts.

Roger Clemens is (baseball) history's greatest monster. Check back in when Pedro throws half a bat at someone during live play.

Let's just admit we root for the laundry, and will almost always excuse an ***hole on our team if he's good enough.

In all seriousness I've lost this with age. John Lackey could throw 33 one-hit shutouts this year and I'll still hate him.

Manny is an #######. Clemens is an #######. Joba's a bit of an #######, but that's overblown because everything about him is. Pedro's an #######, but also cool enough that people still like him.

Roger Clemens is (baseball) history's greatest monster. Check back in when Pedro throws half a bat at someone during live play.

Clemens is an #######. Stipulated.

But what Marichal did is at least as bad.

The issue is the tendency to excuse the Red Sox pricks (Pedro, Manny) as "colorful" or "Manny being Manny".

Well, "excusing" bad behavior is wrong, but pricks are not monolithic. Some pricks are just boring jerks (think Chris Carpenter, Josh Beckett), some are driven to win to the point of no longer possessing a fully recognizable humanity (Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson), some are rampant egotists and self-mythologizers (Curt Schilling, Goose Gossage), some are sui generis hilarious people who are just the best ever in addition to being pricks (Pedro Martinez).

I've got to be the only Yankee fan that 2004 doesn't bother one bit.

Both at the time and with added hindsight, that was my least favorite Yankee team of the entire Torre era. The tiebreaker was Kevin Brown, who was the appropriate choice for the game 7 denouement. My only regret is that I didn't capitalize on my instincts and bet a thousand bucks on Boston.

Well, "excusing" bad behavior is wrong, but pricks are not monolithic. Some pricks are just boring jerks (think Chris Carpenter, Josh Beckett), some are driven to win to the point of no longer possessing a fully recognizable humanity (Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson), some are rampant egotists and self-mythologizers (Curt Schilling, Goose Gossage), some are sui generis hilarious people who are just the best ever in addition to being pricks (Pedro Martinez).

All that's nice and nuanced, and I don't really disagree with those individual assesments, but you might want to ask some of Pedro's plunk victims before finalizing your thoughts on the subject of intentionally throwing at batters.

I've got to be the only Yankee fan that 2004 doesn't bother one bit.

My only regret is that I didn't capitalize on my instincts and bet a thousand bucks on Boston.

Yeah. Suuuuuuuuuuure. :)

I mean, c'mon. Your favorite team choked away its decades absolute competitive hegemony in spectacular, historic, mind-blowing fashion
to its laughingstock arch rival in the most embarassing, table-turning, come-uppance laden, huge-ass loss/biggest victory in American sports.
But it was something that doesn't both you guys, both of which are near nut-case, super-expert baseball fans.

Sorry. With all due respect, not buying it.

I mean, c'mon. Your favorite team choked away its decades absolute competitive hegemony in spectacular, historic, mind-blowing fashion
to its laughingstock arch rival in the most embarassing, table-turning, come-uppance laden, huge-ass loss/biggest victory in American sports.
But it was something that doesn't both you guys, both of which are near nut-case, super-expert baseball fans.

Sorry. With all due respect, not buying it.

Believe what you will. I didn't watch the team at all that year.

After they let Pettitte and Wells go, and brought in two guys I hated Brown and Sheffield (instead of Guerrero), and then traded Nick Johnson (who I loved) for Vazquez, I just tuned out.

I did the same thing in '97 when they let Wetteland and Key go. Just tuned out the season.

I don't react well to losing my favorite players, especially when the moves are baseball stupid too.

I don't doubt you guys hate the 2004 Yankees. That's quite reasonable. I doubt their titantic collapse failed to bother you.

I don't doubt you guys hate the 2004 Yankees. That's quite reasonable. I doubt their titantic collapse failed to bother you.

Sorry to disappoint you, but unlike some other fans around here, some of us don't merge our identities with the fortunes of a sports team, no matter how long we've been rooting for it. And BTW if you didn't see that Kevin Brown 7th game meltdown coming, then you must have been watching a different series than I was.

Sorry to disappoint you, but unlike some other fans around here, some of us don't merge our identities with the fortunes of a sports team, no matter how long we've been rooting for it

Yes, your posts in this thread demonstrate you don't take personal offense when you see** players from your team denigrated. You blink your eyes, realize the difference between yourself and Roger Clemens or Joba Chamberlain, and you move on to your next task.

**Not even "see"! When a separate issue tangentially calls to mind years-ago incidents in which Yankees were denigrated, well obviously that would spark no reaction from you. No, sir.

You're both huge NYY fans. The 2004 ALCS is argueably the biggest loss is sports history. But it didn't bother either one of you?
It doesn't pass the straight face test. It just doesn't.

Ah well, I won't press it, mostly out of respect for Snapper, whom I admire.

You're both huge NYY fans. The 2004 ALCS is argueably the biggest loss is sports history. But it didn't bother either one of you?
It doesn't pass the straight face test. It just doesn't.

Ah well, I won't press it, mostly out of respect for Snapper, whom I admire.

Thank you for your kind words.

Did I like seeing the Red Sox win? No. But, I didn't lose one second of sleep over it. I had no problem seeing the Yankees collapse; they deserved it. I hated the team.

2001 bothered me a lot more.

Pedro also hit Arod and Cairo in Game 5. Arod had been killing the Sox up to that point as well, then went ice cold
for a few years worth of postseasons, until his big 2009.

Yeah, but ARod got back at Pedro with the purse slap in Game 6. So there.

People in Green Bay also think Lambeau field is better than Soldier field.

In fairness, I think that most Chicagoans agree.

Clemens is thought of a headhunter nutjob, outside of Red Sox/Yankees border wars, because he tried to kill Mike Piazza in the World Series.

No one outside of the AL East has any idea if Joba is a headhunter or not. All we know is that he got attacked by bugs that one time.

Petey is a known headhunter who is entertaining enough to be awesome to non-team based fans.

Who is Karim Garcia?

Built a perpetual motion engine. Disappeared into the Rockies. Eventually killed with a single shot to the head in Operation Latte Thunder. His name was Karim Garcia.

Sorry to disappoint you, but unlike some other fans around here, some of us don't merge our identities with the fortunes of a sports team, no matter how long we've been rooting for it

You may want pass on this higher level of consciousness with the boob who posted 13.

Yeah, but ARod got back at Pedro with the purse slap in Game 6. So there.

That was Arroyo.

Clemens is thought of a headhunter nutjob, outside of Red Sox/Yankees border wars, because he tried to kill Mike Piazza in the World Series.

He also violently launched a ball into Piazza's head. I think it was earlier in the same year.

He also violently launched a ball into Piazza's head. I think it was earlier in the same year.

Yeah, he tried to kill Piazza twice. First with the bean ball to the noggin', then by stabbing him to death in the base paths.

He also violently launched a ball into Piazza's head. I think it was earlier in the same year.

Mike sent Roger to the showers with a huge grand slam bomb. IIRC, the very next time Roger faced Piazza, he beaned him. Clearly on purpose.
Unless I am remembering the sequence of events wrongly. Then, slightly less clearly on purpose, but probably.

Yes, your posts in this thread demonstrate you don't take personal offense when you see** players from your team denigrated. You blink your eyes, realize the difference between yourself and Roger Clemens or Joba Chamberlain, and you move on to your next task.

**Not even "see"! When a separate issue tangentially calls to mind years-ago incidents in which Yankees were denigrated, well obviously that would spark no reaction from you. No, sir.

If you can find anything in any of my posts from today or yesteryear that indicates anything beyond an amused contempt for Red Sox fanboys whining about Joba's "headhunting" while ignoring Pedro's statistical tendencies towards throwing at hitters, feel free. I wish that Pedro had honed his skills during intrasquad games, but I've got no complaints about how he pitched to Yankee hitters, who shouldn't dive over the plate if they don't want to get hit occasionally.

--------------------------------------

You're both huge NYY fans. The 2004 ALCS is argueably the biggest loss is sports history. But it didn't bother either one of you?
It doesn't pass the straight face test. It just doesn't.

I was pissed at the way they blew games 4 and 5, and was disgusted at the way they mailed it in in the last 2 games, but by the time it was over I'd pretty much put it out of mind and was rooting for the Red Sox to win the World Series.

When the Sixers beat the Celtics in the 7th game of the '82 Eastern playoffs, the Garden crowd started chanting "Beat L.A. Beat L.A." That was pretty much my reaction to the 2004 ALCS. I can rattle off half a hundred Yankee losses, starting with 1963 and 1976 and 2012, that left a far worse taste in my mouth than that one.

Don't buy it. I don't think anybody else believes there are "hundreds" of Yankee losses that bothered you worse than '04.

I looked up the Roger/Piazza thing:

The GS was in the 3rd inning, then Piazza singled off Roger later, in his next AB. It was Alfonzo that chased Clemens. Clemens
gave up 9 runs, 8 earned , pushing his ERA to 4.82, and dropping his record to 4-6. It was one of the worst starts of his life, obviously. This was 6/9/00.

The next time he faced the Mets, on 7/8/00, Roger beaned Piazza the first time he faced him, with the second pitch of the AB. Piazza was out of the lineup for 5 days

The 2004 ALCS is argueably the biggest loss is sports history.

This is classic projection. The fact that it's the biggest Red Sox win in history doesn't mean it's the biggest Yankees loss in history.

This is classic projection.

The USSR loses their hockey game. The the Colts lose to the Jets. Schmelling gets clobbered by Joe. The Yankees get the come-uppance.

What else? Its argueably right up there. Like I said.

This is classic projection. The fact that it's the biggest Red Sox win in history doesn't mean it's the biggest Yankees loss in history

Most Yankee fans I know regard it as such

Piazza was out of the lineup for 5 days

Mostly due to a bad break out of backne.

Big Yankees losses: 1960, 2004. But '04 was to their arch-rival. And has never been duplicated.

The fact that it's the biggest Red Sox win in history doesn't mean it's the biggest Yankees loss in history.

What would be a bigger loss? The Yankees obviously haven't had much in the way of heartbreak in their history; 1960, 2001, maybe 1955 and at one time maybe 1904? I think if I were a fan of the Yankees I'd feel worse about 2004 than those. Yankee fans can disagree of course, it's their team and their emotions, but I know as a Red Sox fan 2011 bothers me more than 1986 or 1978 just because of the giant lead that was blown.

Big Yankees losses: 1960, 2004. But '04 was to their arch-rival. And has never been duplicated.

And so? I just don't see it, I think losing a world series in which you are heavily favored(1960) is a bigger loss than losing a playoff game to your "biggest" rival.

Of course I think losing a world series by a bad umpires call is worse than the team falling flat on it's face. Or losing a going to a world series game by a fan catch is probably worse. Being beaten feels less bad than having cosmic forces go against you.

And so? I just don't see it, I think losing a world series in which you are heavily favored(1960) is a bigger loss than losing a playoff game to your "biggest" rival.

There is the whole first team to blow a 3-0 lead in playoff history thing, which would tend to distinguish it from your garden variety playoff losses. Whether it's the absolute worst, I don't know, but that series loss has got to be in the running.

Or losing a going to a world series game by a fan catch is probably worse. Being beaten feels less bad than having cosmic forces botched double plays go against you.

Probably not.

Big Yankees losses: 1960, 2004. But '04 was to their arch-rival. And has never been duplicated.

I'm no Yankee fan but it seems like 2001 would be way up there. They had that championship and then somehow Tony Womack gets the best of Mariano and it's snatched away. Plus Unit and Schilling - who I would imagine are pretty loathsome to Yankee fan - on the other side.

Just had to diddit you lassus

I'm no Yankee fan but it seems like 2001 would be way up there. They had that championship and then somehow Tony Womack gets the best of Mariano and it's snatched away. Plus Unit and Schilling - who I would imagine are pretty loathsome to Yankee fan - on the other side.

On the other hand, the Yankees lose the 2001 series 4-1 if Bob Brenly hadn't been on the take. Yes, they could have won the series, but they had no business being in that position.

Clemens is an #######. Stipulated.

But what Marichal did is at least as bad.

I'd say it was a lot worse, taking repeated chops at Roseboro's head with the bat. It's amazing that the injuries were so relatively minor.

I'm no Yankee fan but it seems like 2001 would be way up there.

2001 was brutal. All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team. The mental imagine of seeing Bud Selig and Al Qaida cheering the Yankee downfall is one that won't soon be purged from the mind of decent Americans everywhere.

All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.

Uh. No we weren't.

I can rattle off half a hundred Yankee losses, starting with 1963 and 1976 and 2012, that left a far worse taste in my mouth than that one.

Don't buy it. I don't think anybody else believes there are "hundreds" of Yankee losses that bothered you worse than '04.

Well, you might start by quoting that number correctly. But since you insist, I'll rattle off a few Yankee losses that were far more painful than that one.

--1954 doubleheader sweep by Cleveland that sealed their first non-WS appearance in my baseball memory. I still remember the mocking fingers and accusations of "choke" hurled by the Indians. Fortunately, schadenfreude came but a few weeks later.

--1955 World Series, game 7. Losing to Brooklyn???!!!! Are you kidding me?

--1957 World Series, game 4---blew a 10th inning lead after a miracle comeback in the 9th

--1957 World Series, game 5---lost a 1-0 heartbreaker because Jerry ####### Lumpe didn't charge a ground ball

--1957 World Series, game 7---second straight shutout and third defeat at the hands of Lew Burdette, former Yankee farmhand

--1960 World Series, game 4---lost on a broken bat single by the Pirates' pitcher

--1960 World Series, game 7---lost because of a ####### pebble and because Casey had Jim Coates in the bullpen instead in a looney bin

--1963 World Series, all four games---a record of batting crapulence not seen again for 49 years

--1964 World Series, game 7---down the tubes two years in a row

--1966 season. Nuf sed.

--July 4, 1975---swept in Yankee Stadium by the Red Sox and pretty much booted out of serious contention

--1976 World Series, all four games, but especially game 3, since I was freezing half to death in the stands

--1981 World Series, games 3 through 6. Blew leads in games 3, 4 & 5, and got cold cocked in game 6. Vivid memories of "Mr. May"

--1997 ALDS, game 4. So near and yet so far

--1997 ALDS, game 5. Misery compounded

--2001 World Series, games 1, 2, and 6. Nuf sed. Game 7 was just one of those things, and it was disappointing but not particularly crushing.

--2002 ALDS Total disintegration of the pitching staff

--2003 World Series, game 4. Pitching Jeff Weaver in a sudden death situation on the road is like throwing the game

--2003 World Series, game 5. Wells spits the bit for the first time I could remember

--2003 World Series, game 6. Getting shut out at the Stadium by some ####### sunbelt expansion team is a lot worse than losing to the Red Sox

--2005 ALDS, game 5. One of the many reasons I'm not Mike Mussina's # 1 fan

--2006 ALDS, game 2. See previous entry

--2006 ALDS, games 3 & 4. Hapless, helpless and hopeless

--2007 ALDS, game 2. I hope the Mayor of Cleveland gets his burial suit paid a visit by Joba's tormentors.

--2010 ALCS. You call this a pitching staff?

--2011 ALDS, game 2. With Valverde on the ropes, Cano lets him off the hook with a dribbler.

--2011 ALDS, game 5. First a lead gets wiped out by rain, then Nova comes back flat the next day.

--2012 ALDS. Nuf sed again.

Okay, unless you count every game of the 1966 season, that's not 50 games, but those were just the ones off the top of my head. And to me they were all worse than the one I'm supposed to be all crushed about.

This thread is making me very happy. #81 is spectacular in so many ways.

All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.

Uh. No we weren't.

Since when is Georgia considered part of America? At least most Red Sox fans have a bit of standing to make comments like that.

This thread is making me very happy. #81 is spectacular in so many ways.

Thanks, and in return I won't ask you to make a similar list for That Other Team. You'd be over your word limit by the time you got to your tenth birthday.

That was Arroyo.

Yeah, but A-Rod did it to get back at Pedro, and did. So there.

Thanks, and in return I won't ask you to make a similar list for That Other Team. You'd be over your word limit by the time you got to your tenth birthday.

No, what's wonderful isn't the content. That's secondary. It's the hilarious defensiveness.

Actually it was just kind of a fun memory test. But feel free to send me your psychiatrist's bill.

All of America was rooting for New York to overcome what was an unprecedented attack on the city and its team.

Uh. No we weren't.

Yes, well, we know whose side you were on now don't we?

Edit: I'll take it all out. Mikael pointed out the absurdity of Andy's 81 far better.

Since when is Georgia considered part of America?

I don't get it.

Since when is Georgia considered part of America?

Dead center heart of real America.

The USSR loses their hockey game.

It's nothing like that, since the Yankees lose all the time and never to their arch-enemies' amateurs. (*)

The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century. Sports are so systematized and reformed and corporate now that the conditions for such an upset will never be replicated.

(*) It's easy to see the confusion, though, given the robust similarities between the YES Network of the late Steinbrenner era, and Pravda and TASS of the late Brezhnev era.

No, what's wonderful isn't the content. That's secondary. It's the hilarious defensiveness.

Also, what a magical coincidence that every single other time the Yankees didn't win the world series from 1996-2007 was more disappointing than 2004...

It's the hilarious defensiveness.

Si.

Well then, you're either lying or a moron.

Nah. Both. Like I said, it doesn't pass the straight face test.

For the record, losing in 1996, off of Belliard's goofed double play followed by J*m F*ck*ng L*yr*tz was far worse than losing in 1999.

Also, what a magical coincidence that every single other time the Yankees didn't win the world series from 1996-2007 was more disappointing than 2004...

But of course.

Andy, you left-out that ballbuster of a Spring Training loss to the Mets the other year.

2011 ALDS, game 5. First a lead gets wiped out by rain,

Not sure what this one means. A game was suspended by rain, but not wiped out. The Yankees won it anyway.

And it was Game 1, not Game 5. And it burned Verlander ....

The US college kids over the Soviet pros in the 1980 Olympics was the greatest sporting event of the 20th century.

Your politics are showing. From a different vantage point, Jesse Owens in Berlin, Louis vs. Schmeling, or even Billie Jean beating Riggs are greater triumphs.

From a different vantage point, Jesse Owens in Berlin, Louis vs. Schmeling, or even Billie Jean beating Riggs are greater triumphs.

There's no vantage point on Earth upon which one can rest that would make those greater triumphs. The first two were competitions between sporting equals, with no greater sporting (though certainly some political) meaning beyond that. The US over the USSR appeals as a strictly underdog story, though the politics were fun, too.

The third was a gimmick -- a lodestar of the Trashsport Era, akin to an Evel Knieval jump -- and it's hard to see what the big deal was about a woman pro in her prime beating a 55-year-old man in a nonsanctioned tennis exhibition.

Hate to agree with "Rickey" but he's right. Even after the attacks, people weren't rooting for the Yankees nationwide. They were happy there were games being played and people could go on with their lives, but rooting for the Yankees, without being a New Yorker, is like rooting for Woody Allen out on a stroll at a middle school.