Can we get a projection on his "grit" and "knowing how to play the game the right way"?

Can we get a projection on his "grit" and "knowing how to play the game the right way"?

Aren't those metrics still part of ESPN's proprietary player ranking stat? You remember... the one with that used the highly scientific 100 monkeys pushing random buttons on a keypad methodology?

He signed with Toronto. Playing the game the right way means wearing skates.

Actually, I think ESPNInsider has a free preview thing going on where you can see portions of his grit ranking. Contractually, I cannot share too much, but Eckstein's "play the game the right way" score is severely hampered by his low jump-and-throw totals.


...and btw... I still get giggles recalling that Mitchell, who once squashed an exercise bike under his considerable girth, actually came up as a quasi-SS. Good times.

Perhaps the Jays can heavily rotate in McDonald when Halladay or Litsch are pitching? They're both groundballers and the expected runs needed are lower.

Yeah, the problem with that is...

Burnett 54.8 GB%
Halladay 53.1 GB%
McGowan 53.0 GB%
Litsch 48.1 GB%
Marcum 40.2 GB%

So basically you're saying Eckstein should only start when Marcum is pitching? (And then McDonald should come in for the 9th for Accardo.)

If you could combine Eckstein's winningness, McDonald's finesse, Mitchell's brutishness and Scutaro's clutchiness you might have something.

No love for the Verne Troyer comp?

Well done.

No love for the Verne Troyer comp?

FREE HERVE VILLECHAIZE

It's really too bad that the Jays didn't just sign Adam Everett. He's not a much better hitter than MacDonald, but he's the White Ozzie Smith with the leather and would have fit in really well with the groundballin' staff that the Jays have assembled. MacDonald had a great year with the glove last year, but that seems to me to be a bit a fluke (he's generally good, not great like he was last year). An Everett/Scutaro combination would make a great deal more sense for the Jays than an Eckstein/MacDonald combo (although there is admittedly little overall difference between those two duos).

Perhaps the Jays can heavily rotate in McDonald when Halladay or Litsch are pitching?

Word in Toronto is that Litsch is likely to be starting the year in the minors, with Casey Janssen shifting from the pen to the rotation. Probably for the best, since Litsch's debut screamed fluke (look at his peripherals - BRUTAL!!!).

No, I'd start Eckstein most of the time because he's not a brutal defender. But I'd strongly consider starting McDonald when Halladay or Burnett's pitching and the opposing pitcher is below-average.

...and btw... I still get giggles recalling that Mitchell, who once squashed an exercise bike under his considerable girth, actually came up as a quasi-SS. Good times

.

I get the same when I think of Dmitri Young coming up as a SS at least thru A ball - by AA they had moved him to 3B IIRC...

Its weird to think of Ron Gant, Danny Tartabull, or Gary Sheffield as infielders.

I had this conversation on another board - doesn't it seem like African-American shortstops and third basemen frequently get moved to the outfield?

Can we get a projection on his "grit" and "knowing how to play the game the right way"?

I cant find a source but I could have sworn I saw ESPN list him at "3.4 kilojeters"


Oh wait... actually, it might have been 1.21 jigawatts...

Has Eckstein ever cut the head off of a cat?

Let's face it. The Blue Jays are now one of Canada's worst hockey teams. And they keep hitting around a wrong colour and shaped puck, too.

It seems Eckstein is a bit better than Scutaro, though Scutaro also has a similar 700-ish career OPS. However, Eckstein hasn't played nearly a full season the last few years, and nor does McDonald have either...So with leveraging in McDonald in late innings, and with Scutaro covering 3b when Glaus goes down, or even acting as the 5th OF...I can see 700 at bats going to these three players, which is better offensively than McDonald, Royce Clayton, and the other army of crappy shorstops the Jays marched out there last year. The offense will be better as a whole as well.

I had this conversation on another board - doesn't it seem like African-American shortstops and third basemen frequently get moved to the outfield?

Is there a point to this or are you attributing this trend to coincidence, assuming that there even is a trend. Is there any data to suggest a trend? After all Yount and Chipper Jones went to the outfield. I don't think they are African-American.

If African-American shortstops and third basemen are really moved to the outfield more often than non-African-Americans what would be the rationale behind it?

Not really a point. Just an observation. Didn't think I was touching such a nerve. The conversation I was having was that there are very few African-American third basemen in the league period, and I was just thinking that the few African-American infielders I had seen were usually moved to the outfield shortly thereafter. I have no idea why.

doesn't it seem like African-American shortstops and third basemen frequently get moved to the outfield?

Just an observation. Didn't think I was touching such a nerve. I was just thinking that the few African-American infielders I had seen were usually moved to the outfield shortly thereafter. I have no idea why.

Why are you basing your baseball observations on players skin colour, if you don't think it is in some way pertinent to their value or ability as infielders. I suspect that if a lot of the infielders who were moved to the outfield all had the same birth months, or were largely from Western states you would not have have been cogent enough to make the same type of observation. Or if you did, I doubt that you would have felt it was worth commenting on. You would likely have simply dismissed it as a coincidence, and rightly so, and thought nothing more of it. But when the distinction happens to be skin colour, you not only observe it but also comment on it as if it is not a coincidence, as though it likely has significance of some kind or other. In other words it sticks in your mind as something with relevance or significance.

I just don't see the point or the need of basing our observations of baseball players on their skin colour and then commenting on perceived differences between African-American players and non-African-American players. Why don't you categorize them by birth month, or first letter of last name, or number of siblings. I really can't imagine that skin colour is any more relevant than those differences would be.

Unless I am missing your point, you are making a racial distinction for absolutely no reason. And yes, this does touch a nerve, as it should. And even worse you are offering no evidence at all that such a distinction does in fact exist, nor offering up any rationale for why a "real" difference between the races could lead to this distinction. Which would after all be a valid reason for bringing this up in the first place.

I just don't see the point or the need of basing our observations of baseball players on their skin colour and then commenting on perceived differences between African-American players and non-African-American players.

I don't know if this is the sort of inflammatory post #1 Fan would even want to reply to... but the fact is that everybody sees everybody else through a lens of color, and therefore it is possible that black infielders who are poor defenders are more likely to be moved to the outfield than white infielders who are poor defenders. It's not hugely important, but it is the sort of thing we might want to pay some attention to.

What is your birth month, kwarren?

I had this conversation on another board - doesn't it seem like African-American shortstops and third basemen frequently get moved to the outfield?

I'm pretty sure Wily Mo was a 3B once upon a time (He's hispanic, but he's dark skinned)

see also B.J. Upton

if it touches a nerve, it touches a nerve and kwarren has every right to say that it did and why.
From my perspective though, I didn't read anything racial into what AG#1F wrote. He said it was an observation :of what major league organizations do: and in fact, it was offered initially more as a question. There was certainly nothing prescriptive in what was written - he wasn't advocating that skin color be a basis for moving a player.

Without saying that it's a correct or incorrect practice, there is little doubt that race often affects decision making about individuals. I don't know of any evidence that says that birth month or one's initials does.
(As a non-sports example, when I lived in Columbus Ohio in the 80's for grad school, the police department bought a bunch of ATVs that were used to allow the police to move more quickly within the city than by foot or car. The officers LOVED them, who wouldn't? This was a police department that had been sued successfully for racial discrimination. A friend and I noticed that in warm weather months, you ONLY saw older white males on the ATVs. However, in the winter -when it was 25 and windy and slushy- you tended to see many more young African-American males on the ATVs than whites.)

A bebop makes a good point. If it IS an identifiable trend, it is worth paying attention to. Sheffield may have been a butcher at SS and 3B, but if he had been left there and had a chance to improve, how much more valuable would he have been, and how many millions of dollars could he have made? When the Indians got Graig Nettles from the Twins, he was also a terrible fielder, but the Indians left him at 3rd, he took hundreds of ground balls every day, and became a gold glove caliber fielder.

I am not sure if young African-American infielders are moved to the OF at a greater rate than white infielders (like Mickey Mantle). *IF* they are,then one explanation is that they are objectively worse as a group than Latin or white infielders. It's hard to believe that this is true. Another explanation then is that they aren't any better or worse as fielders, but there is a belief system shared by many organizations (or held in the past) that they are less capable of developing into a decent infielder. If I was a baseball exec, I'd want to know if my coaches and player development people thought that way. Yet another explanation is that as a group they have so much potential offensively, that they are moved early in their careers to get their bats into a major league lineup asap. Again, as a baseball exec, I'd want to know if my organization thinks that way. While this last explanation isn't as potentially derogatory as the 2nd, the outcomes of that type of decision-making could have long-term negative consequences both for the player and the organization by not allowing a great hitter to develop into an adequate or better infielder.

Paging Randal. Randal to the Eckstein discussion...

Black men can't field.

Sort of like the notion that "Red Sox fans can't think objectively", a concept that is continually validated on this site.

Personally I think that IF there is truth to the statement that black players are moved to the outfield, then I think the question would not be 'why aren't black players good fielders' but rather 'why does management think black players aren't good fielders?'

Please, PLEASE. Let's stick to the tried and true stereotypes. They can't skate and they can't swim. Love watermelon. Can field.

What about little jewish guys not being good athletes? Eckstein blows THAT outta the water, don't he? And stuff.

Ozzie Smith was black and he could field so I'd say a black man can play infield just fine. Now I'm off to KFC to get me some fried chicken and grits...yum.

A friend and I noticed that in warm weather months, you ONLY saw older white males on the ATVs. However, in the winter -when it was 25 and windy and slushy- you tended to see many more young African-American males on the ATVs than whites.)

That is probably not racism, but the lingering effects of past racism. The department most likely allowed officers to choose assignments based on seniority. Since the department had practiced racial discrimination in the past, the effect was that senior officers were almost all white. The court order ending discrimination probably forced the department to hire more black recruits, thus the disproportionate amount of young, black ATV officers in the winter.

What about little jewish guys not being good athletes? Eckstein blows THAT outta the water, don't he?

Uber-Aryan David Eckstein? Jewish? Uh, no.

Uh, I know. It was part of the schtick. And stuff.