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Transaction Oracle — A Timely Look at Transactions as They Happen Thursday, January 05, 2012Marlins - Acquired ZambranoFlorida Marlins - Acquired P Carlos Zambrano and $15 million from the Chicago Cubs for P Chris Volstad This is a deal that I understand from the Cubs point of view even if it is one I don’t think I would have made. The Cubs don’t figure to be very good (to put it mildly) in 2012 and the odds are against Zambrano making a substantial on-field contribution. He’d also likely become the focus of the fans discontent (assuming he was to pitch and be an expensive mediocrity) and there’s every reason to think that wouldn’t go down well. So pay the Marlins to take him and pick up a young pitcher who’s been a disappointing sub-mediocrity in return. Volstad is not 25 yet and already has 102 major league starts split across 4 years. The thing is that reaching the majors young is nowhere near the indicator of future success among pitchers as it is among position players. Of course you never know with pitchers. Maybe he can add a pitch. Maybe he has a mechanical flaw that can be corrected. The thing is that you can say that about any pitcher and there are plenty of other pitchers that have a better foundation than Volstad to build on. He’s been a (just over) replacement level nibbler (acceptable control and a strikeout rate that isn’t terrible) and there’s no particular reason to expect more. Volstad is arbitration eligible but I can’t imagine this concerns the Cubs this year. And if he happens to be in line for a hefty raise in 2013 that’s good news. It will mean he pitched unexpectedly well. Zambrano on the other hand is a formerly good to excellent pitcher in steep decline. He’d be among the pitchers I see as having the widest range of possible outcomes even if healthy. ZiPS projects him for a 96 ERA+ with just over 7 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched, poor control and a likely injury. OK, I’ll buy that as the single most likely guess and if that’s what’s in store you can certainly see why the Cubs would have no hesitation (beyond writing that check to the Marlins) about moving him. He’s overpaid for his most likely upside (an ERA+ in the 115-120 range, somewhere around 8 strikeouts per 9 innings pitched with more walks than you’d like) but that’s of no concern for the Marlins. There is a very expensive option for next year but it vests only if Zambrano is healthy (whatever that means. I’m sure it involves getting a medical sign-off) and finishes 4th or higher in the Cy Young voting. Given the way the Marlins have acted in this off-season I don’t think they’d be too disappointed if the option does vest. I’d be prepared to bet heavily against this of course, but you have a talented and very proud man who may well be very motivated. That’s been the basis of many a bounce-back season. Of course the reason he’s on the move is the off field stuff. The Marlins are adding one more volatile personality to a very interesting mix. I’m reaching way back, but the situation this most reminds me of is John McGraw and Mike Donlin. Now I’m not saying that Zambrano is an angry drunk who beats up actresses. Donlin was actually more volatile than Zambrano. The point is that he was a very talented guy that McGraw thought was worth the bother of dealing with. And for the most part it worked out as well as he could have hoped. I don’t think Ozzie Guillen is all that worried about having to deal with Zambrano (or Logan Morrison or Hanley Ramirez) and I think he has a better shot than most managers of getting the best out of Zambrano. Or the absolute worst. Whatever—it rates to be interesting at minimum. |
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1. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: January 05, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4029635)The issue is whether or not the clubhouse would welcome him back. If so, then trading him is a terrible idea. He's likely to be worth his salary.
If not, then you have to trade him. His performance going forward is at best a very secondary concern, and even then it's much more likely to be good than bad.
However, on the subject of his bat: He was a few miles over his head last year. It'd be stupid to expect anything like .318/.348/.500
He's a really good hitter for a pitcher, but his career OPS+ is 64 and that rates to translate to something close to .4 wins in the playing time ZiPS estimates. That's a nice little plus of course.
I do think he's a bounceback candidate as well, and I really don't understand this move unless it's purely a PR one.
If I were Theo I probably would have held onto him and hoped that he pitched well enough to be appealing at the trade deadline. If the ASB rolled around and he was 7-5, 3.25 or something like that he probably would have been one of the big tickets at the deadline.
So, how good a hitter would a replacement level SP have to be to be league average?
Better than Micah Owings, who's a pretty textbook example of a replacement level SP who can really hit.
If not, then you have to trade him. His performance going forward is at best a very secondary concern, and even then it's much more likely to be good than bad.
This is going to be a clubhouse full of guys that are going to lead the Cubs to 100 losses this season. I don't know if I would value the "clubhouse" all that much this year. With or without Carlos it is going to be a mess in there.
Yeah, I guess the big issue is the limited PAs.
In an 80-85 PA season, Zambrano is getting about +11 runs from position and replacement level. So, a pitcher who's a league avg. hitter is going to gain 1.1 WAR from batting.
To be average, he'd need to get +9 runs from batting/baserunning/reached on errors/dp avoidance. But if he could be +9 in 85 PA he'd be a monster hitter, and you'd want him playing everday at another position.
Why? The only way it vests is if Zambrano is healthy at the end of the year and finishes in the top 4 of the CYA.
Theo just gave the Marlins Zambrano for free. If he pitches so well that he actually places 4th or better in the CYA then they got tremendous value for absolutely nothing. But Zambrano isn't going to finish 4th or better this year and in order to do so he would probably have to pitch like Koufax to do it.
I mean - you have the whole gamut here.... multiple physical altercations with teammates... multiple ejections and on-the-mound meltdowns with umps... Acting crazy and "retiring"... How many suspensions does he have? Is it more than Milton, Manny, and pick 3 other players combined once you include league and team suspensions?
Where's Backlasher when you need him - because this is one instance where the numbers on paper have a big, gigantic, enormous blindspot to a real problem.
Over a full year that's over a win.
If nothing else, it doesn't matter in the long run but lets fans believe something will change. I wouldn't have done it for so little return unless I thought that it risked impacting someone like Castro.
Yes, and if a team is trading for him for a pennant race, I think they'd gladly accept the risk of a CY Young caliber season triggering the option.
If you're Theo, why not give it a shot to try to curb this behavior? Sure, it failed with the previous regime, but so did most things. At worst, you release him half way through a season where you won't compete anyway(and don't have many players that look to be on the next good Cub team). At best, you get a great performance out of him and maybe pave the way for an extension.
Which they could have accomplished during the season as well. It wasn't like they had some small window in which to accomplish this.
I don't think so. ZiPs projects 138 IP.
Full year is 5-6 runs.
If Zambrano's pitching performance hadn't been on a precipitous and noticeable slide for a good 5 years now, I might... but he's not 25 anymore. He's 30. And going the wrong direction.
Again - he's not eating chicken and playing nintendo in the clubhouse during games... He's punching teammates, bumping umpires, and doing everything short of stripping naked on the mound and using Starlin Castro as kindling to light his uniform on fire.
But that might be coming.
I didn't mean what ZiPs projects, I meant an actual full year.
EDIT: Oops, looked at the wrong thing. It's about 7 or 8 runs, not 11.
It's just really hard to add a ton of value in a relatively small number of at bats. Particularly since he's not an absolutely good hitter, merely an extremely good one by the low standards of a pitcher.
EDIT: Oops too. Your edit went in while I was posting this.
Carlos has been suspended once by MLB for 6 games (1 start) for blowing up at an umpire. Standard stuff. That was in 2008. (Unless I missed something).
He has been "suspended" twice by the Cubs. The Cubs "indefinitely suspended" him for about a month after the scuffle with Lee. Given it was a scuffle in the dugout, broken up by the pitching coach, it is unlikely the league would have done anything about that -- that was the Cubs. Returning from the suspension, he made 11 starts with a 1.41 ERA.
In 2011 he was suspended by the Cubs for 6-7 weeks. This was after throwing a few pitches at Chipper and getting tossed (and then "retiring", etc.). The league obviously would have taken action there, fairly severe by "throwing at guys" standards, but probably nothing worse than 2 weeks (I can't recall a pitcher ever being suspended for longer than that in such an incident but someone here can enlighten me).
Zambrano has had a lot of "suspensions" because the Cubs have unilaterally suspended him.
With or without cause?
He wasn't suspended for the fight with Barrett, if memory serves.
He was also suspended by the league in 2009 - though perhaps we're talking the same suspension... BBREF doesn't seem list suspensions - and THAT'S THE POINT!!!.
Every year since 2008 - he's had an "incident" that either did or perhaps would have/should have earned a suspension.
And the outbursts have gotten more and more severe and bizarre every year.
His behavior long ago reached the point where you have to account for it somehow and to me - this isn't being taken into account by folks who are thinking they could have got more for him.
His behavior has reached the point and consistency where it's ceased to be a "maybe he'll stop" and a "we might have calculate in at least couple or more starts lost to behavior".
If memory serves, his teammates gave him dinner, a plaque, and a gold watch for that one.
He's a cancer when he's bad and fun when he's good. He's not good.
If you could get your top five pitchers, through a combination of drafting, signing, and development, to hit with an OPS+ of 64, that would gain you something like 3 extra wins over the course of a season. A 64 OPS+, for comparison, is the career average of Neifi Perez. I don't think that would be impossible at all, if you tried to do it consciously. You'd face no special competition for such pitchers, for sure.
The basic problem I think is that it's just plain more work to hit major league pitching than we as outsiders can appreciate.
I know that for years Cincinnati tried to gain an edge on other NL teams by not allowing their minor league teams to use a DH. And they gained nothing from it (that I could see at any rate)
It's not implausible though that you could take (say) a bad hitting outfielder (a guy who was going to wash out) with a good work ethic and teach him a knuckleball. I don't think the success rate would be all that high, but it really wouldn't need to be. You're risking nothing more than a roster spot in the low minors. (And you get the bonus that if it works you're likely to have a good hitting pitcher)
Would have been fun, anyway.
Where are you finding all these mythical creatures. I know Neifi-level offense doesn't sound impressive, but here is the list of pitchers who have over 60 OPS+, with a min of 500 PA's since 1971:
Name PA OPS+
Hampton, Mike 845 67
Zambrano, Carlos 708 64
And Zambrano was at 59 before this season.And you want to find 5 of them at the same time? Trying to sign an actual Centaur to play SS might be a better strategy.
My point was that teams don't attempt to develop such pitchers. Pitchers spend almost zero time practicing hitting, and if they do, it's bunting. If by chance they draft a pitcher who was a semi-decent pitcher in HS or college, those skills immediately begin atrophying.
It should also be stressed that performance is relative. Dempster's career OPS+ is -37. Kerry Wood's is 15. Going from a Dempster to a Wood is a bigger jump than going from a Wood to a Zambrano. Two pitchers with apparently similar pitching stats could easily have a difference in batting of 40 or 50 OPS+. No reason not to take the better batter, especially since they will command similar salaries.
It's a nice idea, but it's unworkable. Among other things, you'd have to convince college managers to keep their pitchers getting a ton of batting practice, otherwise you're going to be trying to make up for a few years of lost time, which alone is likely to be fatal to a pitcher's development as a hitter.
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