Darren, weren't you one of the ones who criticized playing Ortiz every day when the division looked completely locked? I remember others thinking that; I don't recall if you joined them.

I criticized them for being inconsistent. They cruise along as if winning and losing don't matter, than pitch Papelbon 3 days in a row, something they've avoided all year. That kind of thing bothers me.

Dear Red Sox fans,

This is my solemn promise: if the Yankees win the AL East, I will not taunt you. I will not gloat outside of ST and the Sox Chatter, or in them. In fact, I will not say anything at all, because I will be dead. From shock.

THE RED SOX AREN'T BLOWING THE DIVISION. The Yankees just finished going 9-2 in their last 11 games. They have 11 left. Let's say they go 8-3, which is a reach anyway. The Red Sox only have to go 6-4 to win the division. If you don't think the Red Sox can win 6 against Toronto, TB, Oakland and Minnesota, well then, I'm surprised to learn they offer internet access at Bellevue.

That being said, I could not disagree with this:

"The Professor" is a mind-bogglingly dumb nickname. First, it's simply taking a character from a mildly hip tv show and transposing the names. Second, Jack Vincennes gave him the utterly awesome nickname "Dr. Tightpants". We may be losing the division, but at least we didn't lose the greatest nickname in the history of Baseball Primer.

more strongly. Dr. Tightpants is a terrible, terrible nickname. I like JV but come on. Dr. Tightpants? Spare me. Furthermore, even if it was "the greatest nickname in the history of Baseball Primer" (and it isn't, it's probably Bottom Five all-time) there's no way that Yankee Chatter are going to take a nickname from a Cubs fan. Plus "The Professor" is a great nickname, because it leads itself to the "Good news everyone!" line, which works no matter how Farnsworth is pitching.

I understand bringing in Gagne. I don't understand leaving him in after out-out-walk-hit-walk-walk(w/bases loaded). It's September, adn the roster shuld be chock full of relievers, so rest shouldn't be an issue.

It was a horrible, indefensible choice by Francona.

Dear Yankees Fans,

Buzz off! :)

and it isn't, it's probably Bottom Five all-time

I love SG, but he gave out that one to Esteban Loiza when the Yankees traded for him. He called him:

NNGKF&*$HG@@KLEN/MBOE&<DBGD

Darren, you are right--a 3-game sweep loss in the ALDS would go down much better with a division in-hand, but I really do think the Red Sox have adopted a "make the playoffs and sort the rest out later" philosophy... that they see no inherent advantage to winning the division to the ultimate goal--to win the World Series.

I'm not saying I agree with them, just that their every move seems to scream out that this is their philosophy. From resting Manny to leaving Gagne in, etc... these are all part of their "fine-tuning" leading up to setting the roster, establishing bullpen roles, setting the rotation, seeing how Ellsbury does against LHP, etc.

Along these lines, I half expect to see an Ortiz start at 1B once the WC is clinched, because if Youkilis is really hurt, to me the optimal solution to Youkilis's absence would be:

DH - Manny
1B - Ortiz
LF - Ellsbury
CF - Coco
RF - Drew
BENCH - Hinske

And I should make clear that Biff is one of my favorite Sox posters, despite our disagreement on this issue.

Dr Tightpants is brilliance. Quoting Futurama is the pinnacle of mimicking cleverness rather than actually engaging in said pursuit.

there's no way that Yankee Chatter are going to take a nickname from a Cubs fan

oh, barf.

I'm not saying I agree with them, just that their every move seems to scream out that this is their philosophy.

I know. I've been saying this for months and been mocked for doing so.

I disagree about Papi playing first in the regular season. He'll take some grounders but they're not going to risk him hurting his knee or shoulder in a regular season game. Especially with how careful they're being with everyone else.

And what exactly is going on with Youk? Francona sounds like he's out for the year, but what is his actual injury?

C'mon Darren, I think its kind of fun having the Yankee fans around, where's your spirit? Also, I use MFY, not because its clever buy simply because I am lazy and its easier to type than Yankees.
Seriously though #102 has it right. We get to 96 wins and that should be more then enough. If we can't take 6 wins of those last 4 opponents then I stand corrected about this being a championship caliber team.

Along these lines, I half expect to see an Ortiz start at 1B once the WC is clinched

I can only imagine that the Sox have been DHing Ortiz while playing really poor fielders elsewhere because they're afraid he'll hurt himself and they'll lose his bat.

If Ortizzle hurts himself in a meaningless game and the Sox are bounced in the playoffs, there'd exist the most vehement second-guess in world history.

I don't mind the Yankees fans being around. It's all this magnanimousness that's bothering me. :)

And no one's saying the Sox can't win. It's just that it's far from in the bag.

We get to 96 wins and that should be more then enough.

Probably. But maybe not. That's obviously what sucks. And a 10-game stretch in which 6-4 or 7-3 is the most likely outcome can easily go 5-5 or 4-6 if a couple breaks go the wrong way. You guys have been shouting about probability since mid-May, you can't abandon it now.

And 6-4 is a tall order with Manny and Youkilis in question. And Cora playing. And Gagne pitching. And Cash catching games (how the hell did the Red Sox not trade for Molina?).

I posed in the Chatter that I thought the Sox were covering up the extent of Youkilis's injury... what exactly did Francona say to imply he'd be out for the rest of the year? Did he mean playoffs as well?

Honestly, if he's out for the year, if they don't start Ortiz at 1B it will be monumentally dumb since it would let you get Ellsbury's bat in the lineup and I would guess that

Ellsbury's Bat + Hinske on the Bench > Hinske's Bat + Ortiz's defensive foibles

Nah, I don't go probability. I reckon we have the best squad and will end up with the best record. No sabermetrics or science to it.
I agree Darren; if the MFY fans get high and mighty, they can be shiite to have around...but they haven't won anything yet.
And I still think 96 wins does it!

It's all this magnanimousness that's bothering me. :)

Okay then. I would taunt Darren.

I'm exaggerating on his comments. He just sounded so serious about it, like Youkilis was dying. He's supposed to be out for the rest of the series and possibly some against Tampa.

Darren, if we had Molina, he would've ended up hitting like a buck 65. Its just the it works sometimes...
C'mon 6-4 is doable, take 2 against TB(lose the usual Kazmir game), take this last one against the Jays and scarper 3 more at home...that's definitely makeable.

Not to mention that it's not as if Hinske is a super gloveman himself. He's decent at 1B, but he's no Mientkeiwicz or anything.

If Youkilis does have to miss games in the playoffs, there's no way the optimal lineup doesn't involve Manny at DH, Ortiz at 1B, and Ellsbury in LF.

And I still think 96 wins does it!

That's good because no one has disagreed with "thinking" 96 does it.

Boston is now 54-47 since their 36-15 start. That's about .535, which makes them merely a decent team over the past 101 games.

Mo Vaughn's plight post-Red Sox career must be the inspiration for their complete fear of playing Ortiz at 1B unless forced to by interleague play...

Darren, if we had Molina, he would've ended up hitting like a buck 65. Its just the it works sometimes...

Molina has always been a lousy hitter, and would project to hit about .650 OPS, which stinks... and makes him waaaay better than Cash.

I know it's a typo, but I really like "scarper" there.

For the record, I agree with the magnanimous chorus. The Sox will win the division; I've been saying it since June. Some time in the next few days the Sox will win while the Yanks lose, and 3.5 games will look like a chasm.

For the record, I agree with the magnanimous chorus. The Sox will win the division; I've been saying it since June. Some time in the next few days the Sox will win while the Yanks lose, and 3.5 games will look like a chasm.

I thought that would happen at 4.5 or 5.5.

"Boston is now 54-47 since their 36-15 start. That's about .535, which makes them merely a decent team over the past 101 games."

Fair point, but does starting 36-15 allow you to coast a bit for the rest of the season? Whereas starting like the MFY did, does that cause some urgency? The last 101 games are a function of the first 51. You can't look at one without considering the other.

If they were coasting, it should have been toward 100 wins. If you coast and then let the Yankees back into the division (not to mention back into the WC), then you are coasting too much.

#124, no typo, scarper was the intended word. Aussie slang I suppose...

Darren, do you reckon they are setting up for the playoffs and not concerned with winning the division, or do you think the rot has just set in and we have serious issues?

I'd lay down some serious money that the next time the games lead changes, it will be to widen, not to narrow.

I've been to three games that Gagne's pitched in this year after tonight. He's 0-2 with two blown saves, three innings pitched, 7 hits against, 4 walks and 6 earned runs. I travel to Boston, Tito ##### me with him. I go to a game here, Tito ##### me with him even when it's clear that he has nothing. How many of these ####### meltdowns do there have to be before Tito starts having a reliever ready when that fat syrup drinking #### goes in so that he can bail him out if need be? What was the ####### point of bringing in Delcarmen in the seventh to throw THREE ####### pitches? Why not bring in Gagne at that point and have Delcarmen ready to go? Or, maybe just maybe, Jonathan "THREE ####### DAYS REST" Papelbon could have gotten loose and you have him ready to go since Tito is determined to give the barrel a spin and point the gun at his head. It's outrageous.

I'm pessimistic about Manny at this point. Last I heard, he's playing tomorrow then they've got the off-day. I don't see how you let Ellsbury face Downs in as high a leverage at-bat as that was if you've got Manny essentially ready to go and can get the lefty/righty matchup. I suppose if Coco was completely unable to come in and play CF, it makes sense but it looks like a sign to me that there isn't going to be Manny any time soon.

And to think we were all pretty keen when we acquired Gagne. His numbers looked good until he came to Boston.

I was always a fan of Gagné, and was just giddy when they got him. Oh, how naïve I was back in those halcyon days.

I do suspect there's more to the Manny situation than they're saying. Can't really see why they'd have him do batting practice, etc. though... it's all very odd.

McGowan is very tough every time the Yankees see him too.

Err...just a week ago he was beat up for 4 runs in 5 innings. He was good the other two times this year though.

And I should make clear that Biff is one of my favorite Sox posters, despite our disagreement on this issue.

Don't try and butter me up with your candy!

(And no, I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, so don't ask.)

I suppose if Coco was completely unable to come in and play CF, it makes sense but it looks like a sign to me that there isn't going to be Manny any time soon.

I don't know. He's been taking BP with the rest of the team for a week now, and supposedly killing the ball while doing so. It sounds all along as if they've been aiming for tomorrow, with the off day for recovery.

He missed 5 1/4 of the last 6 Yankee games, and started off that Game 1 in his typical Yankee-killing ways. How many of these 5 1-run losses while he's been out do they win with him in the lineup?

Wow, I go for lunch, and this thing gets to 135 posts. I gotta get on it now.

DIE YOU FRAKKING PIECES OF KRAP GO BACK TO QUEBEC YOU STUPID GAGNE AND YOUR STUPID ESCARGOT BS. Can't we put the SOB in jail for arson?

Also, I'm willing ot accept not making the palyoffs at all if it gets Francona fired. This is total and utter bullkrap. Are you guys sure Buchholz didn't steal FRANCONA'S laptop?

Jeez, Torre hasn't won the world series for 6 years, and he still gets a lot more rope than Francona, who brought the team its first world series since forever.

You guys are kind of insane.

Hey Ironchef, tell us what you really think! Its agreed, Gagne has reached untold levels of suckitude, we are split 50-50 and Francona, and we are all still trying to determine if upper management has decided that the playoff spot is good enough and we are coasting, or has the rot set in and the Sox are in deep sh-t?

I think Francona said Manny isn't "mentally ready". What the F!@3 is he, 9 years old?

Oh, I almost forgot, I HOPE YOU GET LESTER'S CANCER HINSKE, AND I HOPE YOU DON'T SURVIVE.

Jeez, Torre hasn't won the world series for 6 years, and he still gets a lot more rope than Francona, who brought the team its first world series since forever.


We won IN SPITE of Terry. he should overdose on his anti-coagulation meds and bleed to death.

Wok, your shtick is old like a grandfather's fart. But less interesting.

And besides, you've got a bigger cushion than the Mets.

I don't really care right now what anybody thinks, I'm just really really really really really angry.

It's as if the bullshit piled up just went over the threshold. We can no longer take it.

Wok, your shtick is old like a grandfather's fart. But less interesting.

I dunno, I'm fairly amused by it.

Do you know how things are bad? Lugo is so far down the SH!#list that I can't even get around to him.

Ironchef, anger is one thing, you sound downright ropeable. Try to use that power for good, not evil. Yeah, it sucks that we aren't going to win 100 games, and it doubly sucks that we haven't just romped this thing home when we had the chance...but at least its exciting. It could be worse, you could be a Royals fan.

Ironchef, anger is one thing, you sound downright ropeable. Try to use that power for good, not evil. Yeah, it sucks that we aren't going to win 100 games, and it doubly sucks that we haven't just romped this thing home when we had the chance...but at least its exciting. It could be worse, you could be a Royals fan.

If there was a rope right now I'd hang myself with it.

I wouldn't trade places with them yet, but the Royals seem to have finally be getting their S!@# together. They're kids are coming up, things are coming together... and we never beat them.

Btw, I don't want "exciting". I don't want "thrilling finish".

Why can't I for once just have some sort of victory celebration without drama and endless F!@#ups?

Good point. If we'd beaten the Royals as we should have, we'd never be in this mess. Here's how it'll play out. We are taking at least 2 of the next 4 games, then 4 of 6 at home minimum. If the MFY can get to 97 wins...well then that just sucks for us and then we will see how good Francona and the management team really are.

Or how bad they are....

there were so many games this year we should have won but didn't. This weekend's BS at Fenway. Gagne's 800th blown game. The 90 ties Lugo's been picked off or got caught stealing 3rd. Retarded baserunning. The slow hook.

I don't mind losing like we did yesterday, sometimes the starters jsut get pwn3d. But losing via F!@3up seems to be the Red Sox MO.

Here's one to make your blood boil...picture this, runners on 2nd and 3rd, two out and Drew at the plate. The outcome? Ground out to 2B...how many effing times did this happen so far this season?

there were so many games this year we should have won but didn't.

Stop right there. The Yanks have lost a LOT of games this season they should have won. They've also won games they should have lost, as have the BoSox. It happens.

I just got numbed out by that at the end. Also, the Lugo popups.

You know what the WORST WORST WORST part is? Seeing Wily Mo hit all those dingers for the Nats.

Stop right there. The Yanks have lost a LOT of games this season they should have won. They've also won games they should have lost, as have the BoSox. It happens.

You know what seperates the good temas and the bad teams? The good teams don't screw up.

Larry, I agree. The MFY lost games they should've never dropped at the start, but are now winning games in the most ridiculous fashion. In all seriousness Larry, how do you rate your chances?

Thank god Milwaukee lost out on Gagne.

Boston vs. Baltimore - 12-6
Boston vs. Tampa Bay - 11-4
Yankees vs. Baltimore - 6-8
Yankees vs. Tampa Bay - 8-7

I would love to hear about all those games the Red Sox "should have" won...

(In the interests of fairness, Boston vs. Kansas City - 3-3, Yankees vs. Kansas City - 9-1. Still, if the Yanks play how they're expected to against the bottom-feeders in the AL East, things look pretty different.)

Why can't I for once just have some sort of victory celebration without drama and endless F!@#ups?

You may find this hard to believe, but a review of retrosheet shows that the Red Sox actually won the 2004 World Series, in, get this, a four game sweep.

I can find a link if you want.

Larry, I agree. The MFY lost games they should've never dropped at the start, but are now winning games in the most ridiculous fashion. In all seriousness Larry, how do you rate your chances?

Not good. I think that Boston probably wraps it up over the weekend, as a sweep of Tampa Bay looks very likely if Beckett beats Kazmir, and the Yankees have their hands full with Toronto.

If the Yankees are within a game of the Red Sox after Monday, though, then I think they have a very good shot. The Yanks *should* win 2 of 3 in Tampa, and if they can sweep the O's, I think it's very possible that Boston would go 4-2 against the A's and Twins despite missing Haren and Santana (and maybe Santana will pitch the finale on short rest, since there's nothing to save him for this year).

If Boston wins tonight and sweeps the D-Rays, though, it's pretty much over. If the Yankees were to finish 10-1, Boston would have to go 3-3 in their final HOMESTAND to lose the division.

But if the Yankees sweep Baltimore and Toronto while Boston loses one of the next four (or the Yanks go 4-1 and Boston 2-2) then we're in for a thrilling final week.

I would love to hear about all those games the Red Sox "should have" won...

Well, there was one on Friday. There have been more, no doubt.

When I think of a "should have won" game, I don't think of who the opponent is -- or even who the starting pitcher is -- but the game situation. If you lose because the manager left a pitcher in there too long when a better pitcher was ready to go, that's one. If you lose because an inferior pitcher was in the game when a superior pitcher could have and should have been used, that's another.

But when you lose because your closer blew it in the ninth, I count those as well. If you lose because of a bad call, there's that, and when you lose because of a baserunning or fielding error, those count too.

The Boston Red Sox will win the AL East this year.

Will this be the first time in ten years that no team is above .600 or below .400?

They are 7 games up. How about you actually think about what matters.

You know, NYY is just as easy to type as MFY. You guys don't use MFY because it's easier, you use it because you think it's cool to call people MFs. Pretty juvenile, if you ask me, and not particularly conducive to civil discourse. But whatever.

EDIT: as to the point of the thread, the current rules make the division title virtually meaningless, so why shouldn't an organization in the Red Sox position prioritize things like health, auditions for roster spots, and setting up the rotation? This has been mentioned above, but not really responded to by the pessimists.

as to the point of the thread, the current rules make the division title virtually meaningless, so why shouldn't an organization in the Red Sox position prioritize things like health, auditions for roster spots, and setting up the rotation?

FWIW, I more-or-less agree with you but there's two answers in play here:

(1) Pride. After having been 14.5 up on the Yankees--although I don't think the AL East lead was ever that big--the Red Sox don't want to the franchise that blows it, in some apparent flashback to 1978 even if, as MHS correctly points out, their chance of missing the playoffs is pretty much nil.
(2) The Division does actually mean something, given the Sox pitching troubles and superior home record, they would benefit from deciding which game sequence they play and having home field throughout the playoffs.

Like I said, I don't really buy the second one and the first one doesn't seem worth possibly hurting one's playoff chances (by overusing Pap or bringing Youk back before he's ready or whatever) but that's the counter-arguments as I see them.

See thread of 9/10/2007: "I want the division!"

I don't want to see the Sox risk their playoff roster. I just want to see the Red Sox not hold tryouts for the playoff roster in the 8th and 9th innings of one-run games.

I think I'm done listening to/watching any games until the playoffs. My head says, "don't worry, your in the post-season." My heart screams, "F&#(*% &&*#*@ %@&#@)%*( #$%^&&^@ %*(@#$())*!!!! I hate losing!!!"

And they're both right.

Speaking of playoff rosters, ie, Larry, RB, etc, who doesn't make the Yankees'? I'm sure eye-chart makes it, Molina makes it, Hughes probably makes it. Who's out?

I just want to see the Red Sox not hold tryouts for the playoff roster in the 8th and 9th innings of one-run games.

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter!

(2) The Division does actually mean something, given the Sox pitching troubles and superior home record, they would benefit from deciding which game sequence they play and having home field throughout the playoffs.

This is also one of those random years where the Yankees are playing much better at the Stadium than they are on the road---24 and 8 since the All-Star break, and 13 of those wins were blowouts. I think both of those teams would love a home field advantage.

The MFY are going to Anaheim to get smacked, then Anaheim is coming to Boston to get smacked.

You missed a smack. Underestimate Cleveland at your own risk. Besides, Angels have taken 4 or the last 7 against the Red Sox, even with 4 of those games in Fenway.

To be honest it makes no damn bit of difference who makes the playoffs the way the yankees are playing. If they play this week for another month it's in the bag. My god I want to shoot myself.

EDIT: as to the point of the thread, the current rules make the division title virtually meaningless, so why shouldn't an organization in the Red Sox position prioritize things like health, auditions for roster spots, and setting up the rotation? This has been mentioned above, but not really responded to by the pessimists.

HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE

Underestimate Cleveland at your own risk.

They can't send out Sabathia and Carmona EVERY night, and they can't throw complete games EVERY time.

I just want to see the Red Sox not hold tryouts for the playoff roster in the 8th and 9th innings of one-run games.

Well, when are they going to do it then? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass but if we agree they have to hold some tryouts for the playoff roster, and they're playong one-run games, what the hell else is Francona supposed to do?

Speaking of playoff rosters, ie, Larry, RB, etc, who doesn't make the Yankees'? I'm sure eye-chart makes it, Molina makes it, Hughes probably makes it. Who's out?

I have some theories on this, but ST isn't the place. We'll get a thread elsewhere.

i wish tony womack was still on the yankees.

*Yawn*

I still think they'll win the division. Going back to the last time we had a winning-is-not-a-priority thread...

I never thought it was in the bank. I recall saying back when the lead was as big as it was, that few teams had ever come back from such a deficit because few teams in such a deficit had nearly as much talent as the 2007 Yankees had. I was pretty sure the lead would shrink, and knowing that sometimes the Red Sox will be on the road against good teams while the Yankees would be playing crap at home, I figured there would be periods during which the lead would shrink faster than I'd like. Every time that has happened this year, the schedule eventually reversed, and so did the trend in the standings.

I still stand by my statement. That said, if the Yankees, Red Sox, and all their opponents continue to play like they have over the last few weeks, I think they'll both end up 96-66, with the possibility of the Yankees briefly taking sole possession somewhere in there. I also don't think that'll happen.

Then again, the division isn't as important to me as it appears to be for some of y'all (which is why I was soundly sleeping last night instead of posting here late into the night). I want them to make the playoffs and to be ready for the playoffs when they arrive.

Mussina put himself in the playoff rotation last night. That should make Red Sox fans feel better.

Yankees Playoff Roster thread

You know, NYY is just as easy to type as MFY. You guys don't use MFY because it's easier, you use it because you think it's cool to call people MFs. Pretty juvenile, if you ask me, and not particularly conducive to civil discourse. But whatever.

Well, you're right and wrong. I don't really give any thought to the MF and what it stands for. I just type it because it's easier than the Yankees. That being said, it is juvenile, and as someone who has taken a stand against that type of activity, I will try to avoid it in the future.

You know, NYY is just as easy to type as MFY.

accounting for shift/caps lock, i'd say yankees is easier to type.

accounting for shift/caps lock, i'd say yankees is easier to type.

Well sure, for a guy as shift-key phobic as you, it would be. But I generally capitalize the Y in Yankees.:)

Yankees Playoff Roster thread

Is there any particular reason why Count the Rings threads don't appear on Hot Topics, while Sox Therapy threads do?

Or why there isn't any direct link to Mahnken's Yankee game threads on the Game Chatter page?

Shouldn't threads on other teams' topics be just as easy to find as those on Furtado's pets?

Is there any particular reason why Count the Rings threads don't appear on Hot Topics, while Sox Therapy threads do?

Rust?

With 10 games left I propose a contest:

Predict the division winner and by how many games.

I say Boston by 3- that's probably where the smart money is.

They can't send out Sabathia and Carmona EVERY night, and they can't throw complete games EVERY time.

Jake Westbrook, Jensen Lewis, Raffy Perez, and Rafael Betancourt all say hi.

The Indians' pitching has hit its stride at the right moment, hopefully they can carry it into the postseason.

Well, you're right and wrong.

I get that a lot. I take pride in the efficiency of doing both simultaneously.

If this has been said before, my bad, but my biggest concern re: this recent stretch of WTF WIN THE STUPID DIVISION is more w. Tito's management of the bullpen than losing to you-know-who:

Friday - He sticks w/ Okajima 2 (or maybe 3) batters too long in the 8th, then brings in Papelbon w/ no outs @ 2 guys on to face the tying run @ the plate? To get 6 outs? For the first time this season? Manny Delcarmen is flipping you off as I type, Coach.

Sunday - Pulling a minor-grade Grady by sticking w/ Schill against Frederico Fistpump after he allows 2 guys on w/ 2 outs in the 8th, instead of making the move he made on Friday (which makes a whole lot more sense here) by going to Papelbon to get 4 outs & preserve the tie?

Tuesday - Sticking with Gagne for THE WHOLE OF THE 8TH INNING? The minute he threw that 4th ball to Zaun, Tito should've yanked his hoser patoot & put in Papelbon to get a totally reasonable 4 outs. But, no, EG throws a lollipop to Russ Fcking Adams, & only gets out of the inning down 2 because the BJ 3B coach mistook Gregg Zaun for Lloyd Moseby.

There's something to be said for showing some faith & sticking w/ your guys when they struggle, but there's also something to be said for winning the damn game. Manny D got all of 2 outs in these games, IIRC, and Okajima & Papelbon only pitched on Friday. Meanwhile, anti-LOOGY Javier Lopez is brought in to give up doubles to everyone under the sun, and Gagne once again alternates effectiveness w/ decrepitude.

That said, if the Yankees could actually come back down to Earth & cut this .800+ winning percentage nonsense out, it would be appreciated.

Then again, the division isn't as important to me as it appears to be for some of y'all (which is why I was soundly sleeping last night instead of posting here late into the night). I want them to make the playoffs and to be ready for the playoffs when they arrive.

Problem with that is the morale side of things. A manager absolutely has to inspire confidence in his players that he will make the right moves at the right time. If he doesn't, if he isn't trying his best to win every single game*, in the back of their minds will always be nagging doubts which may factor into their performances in close situations. I know the CW in saber circles is that such subjective inscrutable mental aspects of the game are overrated, but we've spent so much time pooh-poohing such factors for so long that I feel like they are underrated anymore. Yeah momentum is overrated etc. etc. but blowing a big lead like this, or rather putting yourself into a position where you can blow a big lead, IMNSHO can't help come the playoffs. And I won't even mention the massive chorus of boo-birds that will undoubtedly plague Francona at every home game from here on out when he goes to the mound for a conference; guess that will be an asset too. If the Sox brass has in fact completely factored out the "human" side of the equation in this, believing that as a WC team-which played like crap down the stretch-they are in just as good shape as a divisional winner, they are indeed complete fools.

At any rate if he and Theo don't give a flying #### about the regular season than neither should I. See everyone in two weeks.

*Yeah you also have to manage with an eye to the long term. I am a great admirer of Bobby Cox for precisely that reason. But even he wouldn't tank a game just to "audition" a pitcher to see what he will do in a tight jam in a close game with a division lead on the line.

Cross-posted from Mets thread:

Headlines from St. Louis Post-Dispatch, September
2006:

Redbirds waste Edmonds' clutch, three-run, pinch-hit
home run

La Russa is making inexplicable decisions

Just slip-sliding away
Cards' lead slips to 1 1/2

A swoon for the ages? If the Cards fold, it won't be
the worst collapse, but they'll make inglorious
history anyway.

Are Cardinals headed for ... Fall Classic? Or classic
fall?

Cards ahead of the game in buying champagne

Half-hearted
Cards spot Brewers an early 8-0 lead

ESPN blasts Cards

Headcases in urgent need of a rescue

From the Post-Dispatch, October 2006

Cards get gripping win

COMEBACK Cards rallied from 3-0 deficit

BIG HIT Eckstein comes through in 8th

ONE AWAY Victory puts Birds up 3-1

'Our dream came true'

A great day to be a Cards' fan

500,000 honor the champs
For the first time in a generation, fans rally for an
October sendoff

Cardinals deliver winning teams and more
The owners' commitment to the community is clear.

Cardinals get the last word

and condescending smart guys like robinred.

Haven't read the thread yet. I guess this is my 15 minutes of fame on BTF.

I remembering being a kid and having to swallow something yucky like castor oil and being told "it's good for you". Giving the argument that it's ok to manage poorly in a pennant race because we're just getting things ready for the playoffs sounds a lot like castor oil to me.

Haven't read the thread yet. I guess this is my 15 minutes of fame on BTF.

Hope you enjoyed it! I'm still hurt that I'm not considered a condescending smart guy.

I'm still hurt that I'm not considered a condescending smart guy.

That's only half true JC. We all consider your condescending. :)

Darren Posted: September 18, 2007 at 11:22 PM (#2531187)

So has every ####### Yankee. Mussina was dropped from the rotation and got his spot back because of injury--he hasn't given up a run since. (This is class Torre.) Clemens was pronounced dead and still threw 94.

Molina's hitting .304 .327 .457 with the Yanks. Chamberlain and Kennedy start the year in A ball and are handed key jobs down the stretch. They of course dominate without so much as a stumble.

The Yanks played like crap for the first 1/3 of the year. They don't deserve to even be in the playoffs but the Tigers and Red Sox have handed it to them.

121. Darren Posted: September 19, 2007 at 12:22 AM (#2531380)


Boston is now 54-47 since their 36-15 start. That's about .535, which makes them merely a decent team over the past 101 games.

***

The Yankees deserve to be in the playoffs. So do the Red Sox. As Sparky Anderson once said, "I like to start counting in April."

As to the main issue of the thread, apparently it is the idea that the Red Sox are deliberately engaging in strategies that are causing them to lose so they can prepare for October. I am skeptical but will have to take the Red Sox fans' word for it.

I don't know if this is true of the Red Sox management, but I do think a lot of people took note of last year's postseason--getting there is what matters. It may be that Francona thinks getting Gagne straightened out, and finding out whether he can help the Red Sox next month, is more important than winning last night's game at Toronto. If so, I would disagree with him. It also may be that Francona simply sees the team differently than people here do and is therefore doing stuff they see as stupid. I also think if people believe the semi-tanking scenario, they should be calling out Epstein more than Francona. If that is really what is going on, that sounds like an FO thing.

As to the issue of whether the Red Sox will hold on, they almost certainly will. As someone posted earlier, the Yankees have been hotter than hell and are still 2.5 down. Collapses are not the norm--they are just what people remember.

Given the history, I can see why some of the Red Sox fans want the division, as I said last week. But who won the AL East will be largely forgotten after the first post-season pitch is thrown. An ALDS loss and a division collapse would be a salt-in-the-wound scenario, but winning the World Series is what matters.

As to the interpersonal issues, I have rejected the idea that the Red Sox were really in trouble at any time this year and still reject it. They are still up 2.5 and have the WC to fall back on. I think they are built better for the post-season than the Yankees are, and while I give the Yankees a lot of credit for getting off the mat, I am skeptical that things will be different for them this October, conceding that the young guys may make a difference.

I also disagree with Darren as to how much of an advantage the Yankee payroll gives them over the Red Sox and have explained 2 or 3 times--once in more detail than anyone wanted to hear--why I think so. I have also explained why I do have a bit of an axe to grind about RSNCLs (Red Sox Nation Chicken Littles).

And I want to thank Darren for putting my name up in a big, loud, emotional ST thread lead-in. For a guy who lives in, as Darren's good buddy levski said, "One of the most provincial and most irrelevant cities in America", that is quite a thrill.

Don't you dis Plainvile like that, rr. My brother lives there.

I only scanned this thread (by the time I woke up it already had 150 posts or so) but Wok's callous disregard for life makes me wonder what he's doing in medical school. Do they have the Hippocratic oath there? He's always wishing cancer or a fiery death on some bench player or something. I hope he's joking and being hyperbolic, but I wonder. He's one of the main reasons I don't go to my Sox Therapy sessions much anymore.

You should ignore Wok like everyone--except Biff who finds him inexplicably amusing--does.

You should ignore Wok like everyone

I've said it before, I'll say it again - BBTF's ignore feature is wicked.

I don't deny that I have a strange sense of humor.

Well, when are they going to do it then? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass but if we agree they have to hold some tryouts for the playoff roster, and they're playong one-run games, what the hell else is Francona supposed to do?

I'm not trying to be smart-ass either.

During all those games that aren't one-run games and during all those innings that aren't the 8th and the 9th. The Red Sox are holding tryouts in the very highest leverage situations - I think that keeping Schilling in the game Sunday was not unrelated to such concerns, as well - and I'm simply asking that they prioritize winning a little higher, and switch out of tryout mode during the highest-leverage situations of the game.

I care about the division because you get to fly a pennant for winning the division. I will be happy if I see the 2007 AL East pennant on the wall of Fenway when I walk by.

If other people want to ignore those, that's their choice. Me, I care. I know that a wide selection of baseball fans agree with me in terms of rooting interest.

I care about the division because you get to fly a pennant for winning the division. I will be happy if I see the 2007 AL East pennant on the wall of Fenway when I walk by.

If other people want to ignore those, that's their choice. Me, I care. I know that a wide selection of baseball fans agree with me in terms of rooting interest.

I agree w/you, and I'm sure many of the Yankee fans here do. The Division flag may be a penultimate goal, but it's a goal nonetheless, and I'd be thrilled if the Yankees stole this one from Boston.

The Division flag may be a penultimate goal...

Don't get me wrong, I care about it too. I can, however, understand the POV that doesn't. But what I really want to know is, is there a fancy word for third from last?

is there a fancy word for third from last?

Ricciardimate?