User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Page rendered in 0.7680 seconds
37 querie(s) executed
|
You are here > Home > Sox Therapy > Discussion
| ||||||||
|
|
BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsInterviewing For POBO
(25 - 3:59pm, Nov 22) Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Over and Out (82 - 9:39am, Oct 16) Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...) RIP Tim Wakefield (44 - 8:59am, Oct 09) Last: Rough Carrigan We're Gonna Need A Bigger Boat (83 - 7:44am, Sep 19) Last: Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Halfwayish to Something (81 - 12:02pm, Aug 21) Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Three Trades (17 - 3:46pm, Jul 28) Last: Darren Where We Headed? (34 - 5:09pm, Jul 17) Last: villageidiom Feeling A Draft (22 - 11:27pm, Jul 10) Last: Darren The Case for Doing Nothing (30 - 2:44pm, Jul 10) Last: Darren The First Third (25 - 4:12pm, Jun 27) Last: Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Lining Up The Minors (72 - 4:28pm, Jun 26) Last: villageidiom That Was a Week (63 - 7:31pm, Jun 25) Last: jacksone (AKA It's OK...) The Only Game In Town (except the Celtics, but I don't care about the Celtics. No you shut up) (87 - 11:27am, May 26) Last: ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Yoshida In The Spotlight (49 - 2:09pm, May 12) Last: Darren Reality Check After Series Six (79 - 9:29pm, May 04) Last: villageidiom Syndicate |
|||||||
|
About Baseball Think Factory | Write for Us | Copyright © 1996-2021 Baseball Think Factory
User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
|
| | ||||||
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
No they don't.
who looked like a merely pretty good team before recently falling apart.
They look like they're getting back on track. They have a good rotation, a great offense, good defense, and a mediocre bullpen.
They also have a large lead on the Mariners, who aren't a good team at all. They are a lousy team with a very good bullpen.
That's BS. The Mariners are great because 1) their bullpen is awesome 2) they play in a pitcher's park and 3) They're great defensively. They've all plus defenders up the middle and the best defensive 3B in the AL.
I'm sorry, maybe I'll be saying this as this spray each other with champagne and the Yankees look on disappointed, but I just don't thinks Seattle is that good a team. They have a nothing in the rotation after King Felix, they refuse to play their best line-up and despite what Wok thinks (not that anyone is listening to him anyway) the defense isn't anything. They have a solid bullpen and that's it. They'll finish third in the Wild Card.
WinningWhining Be a Priority Now? Please?Fixed, with emphasis, for Red Sox fans
I hassle Red Sox fans as much as anyone here, but in fairness, many of them are opposed to the whining and are sick of it, since they realize that:
The Red Sox have the best record in baseball
the biggest division lead in baseball
the second-highest payroll in baseball
one of the best owner/management set-ups in baseball
and the greatest comeback in baseball history, against their archrivals,
as the icing on the cake of their well-earned championship three years ago.
They are starting to play Adam Jones more.
McLaren has inexplicably taken to playing Vidro at 2B
That I have NOT seen.
Johjima is a plus defender, you've got Ichiro sucking down flyballs in CF, Betancourt is a good defender, Beltre is the best in the business... I don't know what the problem is...?
Their offense isn't really that bad either. They don't walk, but they have a high BA offense (except for Richie Lugo at 1B), and they're great baserunners.
Don't really understand the Seattle hate. They may not win the Wildcard, but they'll stay in the hunt until at least mid-September.
I've lived under the assumption that the Yankees just simply jobbed for us in 2004.
The Red Sox have the best record in baseball
the biggest division lead in baseball
the second-highest payroll in baseball
one of the best owner/management set-ups in baseball
and the greatest comeback in baseball history, against their archrivals,
as the icing on the cake of their well-earned championship three years ago.
Not to mention that brilliant ninth inning save this afternoon. They're a lock.
I don't think the Yankees can catch them, unless Hughes and Chamberlain pitch REALLY, REALLY well, as I said upthread. As talented as those guys are, they are very young.
Of course, the Yankees do have that payroll...
I'm only doing this for giggles, by the way. Yes I root for the Red Sox, but I'm not panicking for real.
Oh wait a minute ...
I've never understood not bringing your closer into a tie game on the road. It's one of the most retarded unwritten rules managers follow. Torre pulled the same #### against the Giants this year, which the Yankees of course lost. It makes absolutely no sense.
It's not just that. Why not leave Manny Delcarmen in? With runners on third and first and no outs, why don't you walk Tejada? He gets lucky with a pop-up, at which point it's fine not to walk Millar because a DP ends it. But then on a wild pitch the runner advances to second. That's where you need to walk the batter to set up the DP again...but he doesn't. Just mind-boggling.
Yeah, they needed to use Papelbon at some point during this game. Tito managed as if he were secretly trying to lose.
As for as I am concerned, the next time Gagne comes in the Sox better be trailing.
I'm on it. I'm still next to an open window and could easily climb through it if the Sox take care of business at Fenway and sweep Tampa Bay and win 2 of 3 from the Angels.
Its not a ledge. Its a just a low shelf. It only appears to be a ledge to you because you're so tiny. Got it?
Bwahhahahahahahahah. Jump now.
They seem, like most teams, to be something of a different team at home.
Of course, the series in Baltimore was "on the road" in the sense that they all had to stay in a hotel and the Orioles got to bat last. If you knew nothing about ballpark architecture or rules and just looked at who the crowd was mostly rooting for, you'd have entirely the wrong idea about who the home team was.
Based on what?
Pedroia is OK, maybe a little over his head. Lugo is lost. Crisp has been figured out by the AL. Ortiz is hurting badly. Manny is now a good, old guess hitter. Drew is a bad joke. Lowell's OK, but usually fades badly right about now in the season. 'Tek is semi-useless as a hitter. Youks is fading slowly, and is banged up. Hinske can't hit much, Cora is back to himself, 'Belli's plain awful, WMP is useless. I wanted them to make that Dye trade.
Beckett is very good. Dice is very good. Wake's...never mind. Schill is Traschel all of a sudden. Lester aint ready. MDC might be OK. Okajima's nibbling is becoming more well known, and he's moving backwards. Papelbon is very good. The rest of the pen is a bad joke. Gagne is a major disaster, my friend.
We can't hit, we have two good starters, and the whole team is pressing like all hell, if not outright choking. We haven't had a big hit in months it seems.
OK?
If they don't make the playoffs, it's irrelevant how much a difference he makes. And I don't think he changes things for the Yankees. As Rosenthal says, he was a 6 inning pitcher last year reduced to a 5 inning pitcher in the DH AL. That won't reduce the strain of the Yankees bullpen. And he won't be available for another month anyway. He's 45 years old and he won't be traveling on road trips. I think it almost certain the Yankees jsut wasted 18+ million dollars, money that they could have used at the deadline to fix other more longterm problems.
I guess Cashmans plan all along was to be stingy this off-season, then load up on Clemens. That they #### the bed earlier than expected forced his hand to sign him sooner than expected. If I'm not mistaken, adding Clemens salary plus the cap penalty crushes any previous payroll record.
So much for Cashman being fiscally conservative and building from within. Darren is right. He has no apparent virtues as a GM besides his willingness to open Steinbrenner's wallet. It will make this year all the more delicious when the spending goes unrequited once again.
tfbg9 and Sox fans: If there's one thing a fan learns, it's that when you're losing, you look terrible, and when you're winning, you look great. Right now, two of the hottest hitters in the majors are Cano and Cabrera. When they're hitting like that, and you've got Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Matsui, and Abreu doing pretty much what they do, the Yankees look unbeatable. And, the Sox are slumping. But Cano and Cabrera won't keep up this pace. And Matsui and Posada will go through a dry spell soon. I think we're in for a nice race, but you've still got 4 games on us and our margin for error is very slim.
One of these days the Yanks and the Red Sox are going to just play each other in Baltimore and eliminate the middleman....
So much for Cashman being fiscally conservative and building from within.
Jeter
Rivera
Posada
Cano
Cabrera
Hughes
Chamberlain
I think I'd take those seven farm system products against any other team's top seven. And you may also be hearing about Ian Kennedy before too long as well.
Of course, and that makes eight going on nine. Can any of the other 29 teams match that for quality?
And for that matter, you could almost half count Pettitte, since he stayed with them for his first nine years and came back at his first opportunity.
Personally, I don't think the M's are that good either, but they're still in it, so ... *shrug*
Cool
I'm not on the ledge after the walk off, probably because Tiger won and Souths have had their best season since 1989.
EDIT - It was Millar, kill me now.
If you go all the way back to the 1992 draft, plenty of teams can match that. Not many teams can afford to extend all their homegrown stars, though.
If you go all the way back to the 1992 draft, plenty of teams can match that. Not many teams can afford to extend all their homegrown stars, though.
Well, now it's between eight and ten we're talking about, not seven. And with Kennedy, six of those ten will have come up just since 2005.
But forget Rivera, Pettitte, Jeter and Posada. How many teams today wouldn't gladly trade their top six recent farm products for the micro-salaried Cano, Cabrera, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy?
My point is that in the last few years, in terms of first rate Major League talent, the Yankee farm system doesn't have to take a back seat to any other team. Those dreadful days of shoveling their best prospects or high draft picks for geriatric pitchers are mercifully over, and as I was predicting five or six years ago on this site that this great day would eventually come, I can't say that I'm too unhappy about it.
And P.S.: Damon's injuries are healing, he's hitting again, and in LF he's nowhere near the defensive liability that he is, or was, in center. So even that little Spring and early Summer disaster is starting to correct itself without having to press the panic button.
Not that I'm dismissing them, all season long I've been shocked at the Yankees seemingly playing much worse than their talent, and the Red Sox playing much better than theirs (esp with Manny Ortiz not at 100% and two black holes in the lineup).
This is a weird Red Sox team.
Plenty of teams wouldn't make that trade, I'd guess. Melky, Wang, and Cano are proven regulars (but not stars), and the other three are promising (very promising in Hughes case) prospects who haven't proven squat in the majors.
The Orioles have had a mediocre at best farm system over the last 10 years, and I doubt they'd trade Bedard, Roberts, Markakis, Loewen, Ray, and Olson for those six. Certainly any team that has produced a legit superstar over the last few years wouldn't make that trade.
As an aside, the Yankees (and Red Sox) advantage isn't just that they can afford to extend their Jeters and Posadas. Those same teams who can't afford to re-sign their big name free agents also can't afford to pay above slot to draft picks, invest large amounts of money in scouting/training in foreign markets, and pay large bonuses to international free agents.
The Yankees certainly have some legit young talent in the majors and farm system, but that's largely the result of a broken system.
Robinson Cano, age 24, this season: 311-358-503, OPS+ of 130 at 2b, UZR has him at +24 / 150.
Brian Roberts, age 29, this season: 320-405-472, OPS+ of 132 at 2b, UZR has him at +4 / 150.
Also, Melky Cabrera, age 23, this season: 301-349-443, OPS+ of 113 at CF, playing average defense, UZR has him at +6 /150. Not yet a star, but he is only 23.
Wang's career ERA+ is 115.
<edit: typos>
It's been that lean since 1989? 9th place isn't bad though. At least they're competent now.
Very competent and still a real chance of making the semi finals. 1989 was the last time they were in the semis. I forgot what they even looked like!!!
Massive game against Manly next Monday night, I think we can beat them...
Absolutely. And I'm not saying for a second that the Red Sox aren't still the team to beat.
Plenty of teams wouldn't make that trade, I'd guess. Melky, Wang, and Cano are proven regulars (but not stars), and the other three are promising (very promising in Hughes case) prospects who haven't proven squat in the majors.
Watch a month's worth of Yankee games and then see if you still believe that. You have to see Cano and Cabrera on a daily basis to appreciate just how good they've become, and just how much more of an upside they have than their earlier statistics would indicate.
The Orioles have had a mediocre at best farm system over the last 10 years, and I doubt they'd trade Bedard, Roberts, Markakis, Loewen, Ray, and Olson for those six. Certainly any team that has produced a legit superstar over the last few years wouldn't make that trade.
Watch Cano, Hughes and Chamberlain for a while and tell me that you'd trade those three alone for those six Orioles. And I'm not knocking any of those O's for a minute. (How could I, after seeing what they've done to the Yanks so far this year?)
As an aside, the Yankees (and Red Sox) advantage isn't just that they can afford to extend their Jeters and Posadas. Those same teams who can't afford to re-sign their big name free agents also can't afford to pay above slot to draft picks, invest large amounts of money in scouting/training in foreign markets, and pay large bonuses to international free agents.
That's exactly what I've been saying for years. The final piece of the puzzle was taking some of that money and putting it in their farm system, instead of just playing the dumb rich uncle to the Senior Citizens' Society of Just About to be Washed Up Pitchers.
The Yankees certainly have some legit young talent in the majors and farm system, but that's largely the result of a broken system.
The point is that it ain't that broken any more.
A system in which the poorer teams can't sign the best talent, in spite of a draft which had the original intent of giving every team a fair shot at that talent, seems pretty broken to me.
A system in which the poorer teams can't sign the best talent, in spite of a draft which had the original intent of giving every team a fair shot at that talent, seems pretty broken to me.
Sorry, I thought the "broken" reference was to the Yankees' farm system, not the way baseball has chosen to distribute the talent at the draft level. I completely agree with your point about the latter.
A system in which the poorer teams can't sign the best talent, in spite of a draft which had the original intent of <strike>giving every team a fair shot at that talent</strike> controlling bonuses given to high schoolers, seems pretty broken to me.
Fixed that for you. Though your point about it being broken still stands.
Not use why Danny only went back to Jeter in 1992 draft and not all the way back to 1990 for Posada and Pettitte. There's no way that those players can be considered in the same cohort as the current group.
I'd say the Yankees have had 3 distinct productive phases of home grown talent acquisition.
1. Late 1980s to 1992 which produced Williams, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada and Jeter - the late 90s dynasty core.
2. 1998-2001 was an extremely productive international phase with Soriano and El Duque (if you want to include very expensive semi-pros) and Wang, Cano and Cabrera.
3. 2004-2007 - Hughes, Joba, Kennedy et al in what looks like it may potentially be a very productive (and expensive) draft era.
The last two groups are going to end up overlapping nicely, of course.
Agreed, although I'd argue that Bedard/Roberts/Markakis trio for Wang/Cano/Cabrera is just as lopsided. Either way, these six are relatively comparable, and I'm only choosing the Orioles because I know their players. There's the obvious ones like the Brewers, Mets, and Indians, but I'm betting there are numerous other teams that have brought up comparable or better young talent in recent years.
Robinson Cano, age 24, this season: 311-358-503, OPS+ of 130 at 2b, UZR has him at +24 / 150.
Brian Roberts, age 29, this season: 320-405-472, OPS+ of 132 at 2b, UZR has him at +4 / 150.
If you average out Cano's UZR's for the last 2.5 years, he's just slightly above average (as is Roberts). I wouldn't place to much reliance on half season fielding numbers.
Also, the basrunning gap between these two is easily a win a year.
Regarding quality of young players on a given roster developed internally the Brewers might be worth considering:
1b Prince Fielder. All-Star in 2007 and currently leading the NL in home runs. 23 years old
ss JJ Hardy. All-Star in 2007 and has 20 homers while playing good defense. 24 years old
3b Ryan Braun Leading candidate for NL ROY currently hitting .348/.392/.666 with 22 homers and 59 rbi in his first 70 games. 23 years old
rf Corey Hart .276/.340/.505 hitting either leadoff or second in the lineup. 18 homers while also stealing 18 bases in 22 attempts. Has made a plethora of outstanding catches to save games of late. 25 years old
SP Yovani Gallardo After dominating to the tune of a 2.51 ERA has a horrible outing against Colorado giving up 12 runs in two innings causing his ERA to spike to 4.20. But in 55 innings has struck out 48 while walking 20. Came into the season considered on par if just a hair below as a prospect to Hughes. 21 years old
SP Manny Parra Has bounced between starting and relieving for Milwaukee. Pitched a perfect game at Triple A after dominating Double A. In very limited action has struck out 18 walking 6 in 17 innings. 24 years old
RP Carlos Villanueva Was the Brewers best pitcher in the firsts half making spot starts and relieving. Due to overwork has regressed in the second half causing his ERA to balloon to 4.72. But in 76 innings has struck out 72 batters with a truly fine changeup coupled with excellent control which has deserted him the last month because of a tired arm. 23 years old.
This does not account for the other "home grown" players on the roster including Rickie Weeks (suffering a disasterous 2007 season with a .209 batting average), Geoff Jenkins (longest tenured player), Bill Hall and Ben Sheets (on the DL).
The oldest player in the last paragraph is Jenkins at 32. Every other player shown here is 28 years old or less.
Just thought this might be a worth a mention even though the Crew does play in the "lesser" league.
This is one of those threads that should be put in a time capsule and re-opened in about five or ten years.
-- MWE
With Tampa drafting in the top 5 every year since inception, it would be pretty sad if they didn't have a half dozen young star propects.
Sure. So Roberts is a slightly better player, probably in his prime; while Cano is slightly inferior younger player who probably will improve.
Bottom line here: The Yanks would never make a Cano - Roberts trade, while the O's would either do so in a blink, or prove that they're still the O's by not making it. And I think Roberts is a terrific player.
What the #### does Cano have to do to become a star other then play plus defense at an up the middle position while putting up a 130 OPS+ for two years?
If you average out Cano's UZR's for the last 2.5 years, he's just slightly above average (as is Roberts). I wouldn't place to much reliance on half season fielding numbers.
That's deceiving because he was so awful in his first year, as are a lot of defensively talented young players, because they are adjusting to the league. He was +10 or something last year. I'm not arguing he's better then Roberts this year, although I think he will be by the end of the year, but he's definately better in the field then his three years UZR suggests.
He's got 7 HRs in his last 130 PAs. I think he's likely to finish with 18-20 this year. If he ever gets off to a decent start, I think it's a pretty safe bet that he'll finish with 25+ homers. The guy is an XBH machine right now (9th in the AL and climbing), I wouldn't be surprised to see some of those doubles and triples go over the wall in a couple of years.
We're confusing a few different arguments here. Of course Cano is more valuable now as a trading chip because he's younger and cheaper.
My original argument was that Roberts is a comparable farm system product to Cano. A slightly optimistic projection for Cano puts him at ~40 BRAR (current production and no injuries) over the next 3 years which would place him slightly ahead of where Roberts will be at the end of this year, his last 'cheap' year. I don't believe there is a significant defensive difference between these two players, even if we just use 2006-mid 2007 UZR (which is still too small a sample for defense), there's only a 5 run gap between the players.
Also, in fairness to Roberts, he was rushed by a team that was desperate for talent at the major league level, and lost time rotting on the bench because his second base competition wasn't Tony Womack. If he came up through the Yankees system, he would've likely spent much or all of 2001-2003 in the minors and still be two years away from free agency.
I also argued that Brian Roberts is a better player than Cano right now in response to some OPS+ (which underrates Roberts OBP and ignores his baserunning) and 2007 UZR (sample size) arguments.
I've also seen a couple of people on BBTF threads suggest that Cano, being relatively cheap, would make a valuable trading chip for the Yankees, because Cano's low cost would mean more for teams with smaller payrolls. That logic makes some sense, but Cano would be so difficult to replace -- a good-hit, good-field 2B with the right attitude who's still improving -- that I don't think it would make sense for the Yankees to trade him. He seems like someone who could man 2B for NYY for the next 8 years.
The can't-afford-to-pay-above-slot logic never really made sense to me. The idea that any team (KC, Pitt, whoever) should draft an inferior player over a cost difference of $100-$300K is pretty silly. It's gotta be cheaper in the long run to invest a few hundred thousand more dollars on draft day and develop MLB-quality players from within than it is to be stuck in the perpetual rebuilding/can't sign free-agents vortex.
On another note, I love how this thread went from a slightly-panicy Sox-are-sucking thread to a Yank's farm system love fest. Nice hijack!
j
Well, I'd do that too, because you find maybe one or two Santanas in a generation. There are probably a handful of other players for whom I would trade Cano, but fans of those teams would say the proposed trade was crazy. For instance, I would trade him for Hanley Ramirez. Or Grady Sizemore.
Cano's batting average bottomed out at .236 on May 17, a time when "we weren't really winning, and it seemed like only three guys were hitting." Cano was referring to Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter and Jorge Posada.
That renewed Cano's just-get-on-base philosophy, which he still preaches to Cabrera.
"We help each other sometimes, we talk about the game, what we should be doing," Cano said. "When we get on base, these guys can do their job. With all these guys in our lineup, if we're on base, they have to pitch to them."
Cano apparently pulled Cabrera aside and explained that their jobs are to get on base. They've been doing that. I love these guys.
Don't get me wrong, I love Grady, and he's the better player right now. But considering the Yanks have Melky, and there are only three really good second basemen in the Majors right now (Roberts, Utley, and Cano), I don't know that I would trade Cano. In a vaccuum, yes, but given the Yankees current situation, I think it's debatable.
JC, Cano also has more walks then Ks since the All-Star break.
I know, but he's also hitting about .450 over his last 100 or so ABs. He's gotta cool off at some point.
WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!!!
Agreed.
Mods: lock this thread. If that's not possible, consider deleting.
2bmen with a higher warp1 than Cano: Utley, Kelly Johnson
2BMen with a higher WARP1 last 2 years combined: Utley (barely)
2B men with a higher WARP3 last 2 years combined (no one- Utley close second)
good question- he's a better player than Soriano was OPS+ing 130 for the Yankees because he's much better defensively- rightly or wrongly Soriano was considered a major star at that point in time.
There was a rough offensive equivalence between Soriano at ages 26, 27 & 28 and Cano at ages 22, 23 & 24. Assuming that Cano's age is legit you'd have to also assume that Cano will have a much better career when all is said and done.
And he's only 24! I wonder what he is going to hit in his prime years. .550? That would be what, like, a record or something I bet.
To be fair, I only thought the Twins would go for it at a certain time and a certain circumstance: next year's trading deadline if the Twins are completely out of it. At that point they know they're not keeping Santana, and Cano is exactly the type of player that teams are looking to trade for when they move their stars at the deadline.
My larger point was that, assuming the Yankees re-sign A-Rod, the acquisition of Betemit makes this deal doable from the Yankees' point of view, since Betemit can take over at second without the dropoff being too big.
The Twins would not go for this trade now, in the offseason, or if they are anywhere near contention in July. But if they're going to trade him, I can't see anybody making a much better offer than one centered around Cano.
I'd like to see them get one more bat on the bench and dump the 12th reliever. This water-torture of watching weak hitters batting late in close games is only worsened by knowing the usual suspects are Hinske, WMP, Mirabelli and Cora are what's available.
Tavarez and Snyder seem redundant.
Aw, come on.... I've got tickets the day game.
Wait, that means I get to see Beckett. I'll stop complaining (although I'm not sure how I get to ten games by Saturday and not yet see Matsuzaka).
-I only picked up last night's game in the 8th. How did Lester look? The play-by-play makes it look like there were quite a few deep fly outs, and that maybe he's still having the same hittability problems, but I didn't see him - were there visible improvements?You would? You'd make that sacrifice? Wow, get Terry Ryan on the phone right now. Better still, I heard he has ponies for everyone! oh, what a happy day.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main