BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Can Winning Be a Priority Now? Please?

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201. Mister High Standards Posted: August 15, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2485672)

It's funny that in Sox therapy there is a Cano thread, but not really any comparisions to Lil Dust. I'm actually not sure who is a better player between those two. I guess gun to my head I'd say Cano since he has a longer track record, and I'd guess he has more growth potential due to the nature of his skills. With that said, I'd guess he is likly more risky as well... but that is hedged against the longer MLB track record. Their skill sets are pretty damn different.

202. JPWF13

Posted: August 15, 2007 at 01:37 PM (#2485682)

I assumed that any mention of Cano on a Sox Therapy thread implied a comparison to Petunia...

203. covelli chris p Posted: August 15, 2007 at 01:37 PM (#2485684)

I guess gun to my head I'd say Cano since he has a longer track record, and I'd guess he has more growth potential due to the nature of his skills.

are you saying petunia's NOT the best player in baseball history? i think i'd have to disagree with your assessment.

204. covelli chris p Posted: August 15, 2007 at 01:38 PM (#2485687)

oh, and don't you think any conversation between cashman and ryan about johan santana would have to start with hughes and tabata?

205. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 15, 2007 at 02:02 PM (#2485705)

oh, and don't you think any conversation between cashman and ryan about johan santana would have to start with hughes and tabata?

Well, either that or the safe return of Ryan's wife and children.

206. NJ in NJ Posted: August 15, 2007 at 03:20 PM (#2485808)

oh, and don't you think any conversation between cashman and ryan about johan santana would have to start with hughes and tabata?

I would think Cano is a far more valuable commodity than Tabata. Tabata is still all potential with a spotty injury history and power questions.

207. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 15, 2007 at 04:24 PM (#2485890)

I would think Cano is a far more valuable commodity than Tabata. Tabata is still all potential with a spotty injury history and power questions.

Sure - well, it depends on how much the team values extreme cost certainty, with Cano heading to arbitration this winter. But regardless, I think the point is that the discussion always starts with Hughes, and ends the moment Hughes is removed from the conversation. Cano as "the center-piece of a deal" for Santana is a fanboy joke.

Cano and Pedroia are pretty indistinguishable in value this year. Cano has a small lead due to greater playing time, but they've got basically the same ZR and EqA/MLVR/whatever. It was more fun when Cano was way, way worse. It is fun that Cano's beyond insane month has culminated in his just barely catching Pedroia.

208. Dave Cyprian Posted: August 15, 2007 at 05:11 PM (#2485978)

Petunia is turning in one of the finest rookie second base campaigns in modern baseball history.

209. Dave Cyprian Posted: August 15, 2007 at 05:13 PM (#2485983)

By which I mean he has a very legitimate shot to finish with the highest rookie 2b OPS+ since 1945. He is percentage points behind Delino deShield's 1990 effort.

210. covelli chris p Posted: August 15, 2007 at 05:16 PM (#2485990)

He is percentage points behind Delino deShield's 1990 effort.

so we should be able to trade him for the best pitcher ever in a few years?

211. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 15, 2007 at 06:08 PM (#2486062)

so we should be able to trade him for the best pitcher ever in a few years?

Pedroia for Hughes? No thanks.

212. JC in DC Posted: August 15, 2007 at 06:19 PM (#2486071)

Cano as "the center-piece of a deal" for Santana is a fanboy joke.

I tried to explain this to Larry at the DC meetup. I'd make the Hughes - Santana deal in a second.

213. The Original SJ Posted: August 15, 2007 at 06:22 PM (#2486078)

Santana is Hughes potential realized (maybe). anyone is crazy to not make a Hughes for Santana deal

214. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: August 15, 2007 at 06:39 PM (#2486097)

I'd make the Hughes - Santana deal in a second.

Straight up?

This site should change it's motto from "Baseball for the Thinking Fan" to "Minor League Prospects are better than established Major League superstars".

Hughes has wonderful numbers at 21. His minor league stats are eye-popping. If we were talking about trading him straight up for a 32 yr old pitcher entering his decline phase, I'd be all over it. But we're talking about a 28 yr old who's 65-28 since becoming a full-time starter, with no sign of let-up.

215. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: August 15, 2007 at 07:41 PM (#2486180)

JC is a Yankee fan, p8p, he's saying he'd make a Hughes/Santana deal as the Yankees. I doubt very much the Twins would.

216. JPWF13

Posted: August 16, 2007 at 03:06 PM (#2487368)

Cano and Pedroia are pretty indistinguishable in value this year. Cano has a small lead due to greater playing time, but they've got basically the same ZR and EqA/MLVR/whatever. It was more fun when Cano was way, way worse. It is fun that Cano's beyond insane month has culminated in his just barely catching Pedroia.

Let's see at 23 (24 tomorrow) Petunia is hitting .324/.397/.440 for an OPS+ of 120, and for his MLB career he's .298/.370/.413 and 105
at 23 Cano hit .342/.365/.525 for an OPS+ of 132
for his career he's .316/.346/.492 and 120
His OPS+ this year is 128

So Cano's had an "insane" month? Well Petunia hit .415/.472/.600 in May.

Cano has a substantial lead in Warp1,2 & 3

Basically Sox fans want to ignore everything that happened before THIS year, to try to declare Pedroia and Cano to be even, but even that doesn't work, so then they want to disregard the last 30 games or so ... AHA Petunia outplayed Cano from 4/1/07 to 7/15/07!!!! He's really the better player!!!!

I used to parse numbers like that to prove "my" guy was better when I was 15 years old...

217. JC in DC Posted: August 16, 2007 at 03:10 PM (#2487373)

JC is a Yankee fan, p8p, he's saying he'd make a Hughes/Santana deal as the Yankees. I doubt very much the Twins would.

I was riffing off Matt's comments about Hughes being the centerpiece of a deal. I'm not an idiot or a fanboy.

218. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: August 16, 2007 at 03:17 PM (#2487375)

I wouldn't trade Buchholz for Cano. (sticks out tongue)

219. Mister High Standards Posted: August 16, 2007 at 04:41 PM (#2487471)

Basically Sox fans want to ignore everything that happened before THIS year, to try to declare Pedroia and Cano to be even, but even that doesn't work, so then they want to disregard the last 30 games or so ... AHA Petunia outplayed Cano from 4/1/07 to 7/15/07!!!! He's really the better player!!!!

I don't believe that is what I said at all in #201. But if you want to just make stuff up that is fine. They have been roughly the sameplayer this year. Cano obviously was much better last year, with Lil Dust having a much better minor league track record. Gun to my head Cano is better, but I don't see how you can say that with any kind of confidence.

Dustin's EQA is .286 Cano is .281. Both are ranked very highly in UZR, I tend to think Dustin turns the DP better but neither are GREAT at it, Cano seems a little below average at that aspect of the game but that seems to the only real hole he is a really good player.

220. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 16, 2007 at 05:20 PM (#2487520)

I don't believe that is what I said at all in #201

That's probably why he didn't quote what you said.

221. JPWF13

Posted: August 16, 2007 at 05:27 PM (#2487526)

That's probably why he didn't quote what you said.

no, but what's funny is that after accusing me of putting words in HIS mouth he then goes on to pretty much agree with who I did quote.

222. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:08 PM (#2487559)

Dusty's Birthday today! He turns 13!!!

:glomp:

223. Mister High Standards Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:20 PM (#2487572)

OK genius. Explain what I said that you disagree with in 219?

224. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:27 PM (#2487577)

Let's not argue on Dusty's birthday. Do you argue with people on Christmas when Jesus was born?

225. JPWF13

Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:36 PM (#2487589)

OK genius. Explain what I said that you disagree with in 219?

1: "I don't believe that is what I said at all in #201. But if you want to just make stuff up that is fine." I wasn't responding to your post, so I disagree with your assertion that I was.

That's pretty much it.

I can't believe you haven't noticed all the Cano/Petunia threads and how some RedSox fanboys have been a bit over exuberant in their praise of Petunia esp vis a vis Cano...

226. covelli chris p Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:40 PM (#2487596)

a bit over exuberant in their praise of Petunia

that's pretty much impossible.

227. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 16, 2007 at 06:47 PM (#2487604)

JPWF13-

That's quite a strongly worded case you make that Cano should be considered a better player overall than Pedroia.

It's too bad I never said a damn thing about which player was better. My post, as is obvious to anyone not blinded by fanboy rage, was entirely about the 2007 season. My initial sentence could hardly have been more specific as to my point of comparison: "Cano and Pedroia are pretty indistinguishable in value this year." Your facts about seasons other than 2007 are true facts, and relevant to a debate with MHS's #201 (which you dodged) but wholly irrelevant to what I was saying.

228. JPWF13

Posted: August 16, 2007 at 07:07 PM (#2487652)

My post, as is obvious to anyone not blinded by fanboy rage, was entirely about the 2007 season.

I'm a Met fan, I like tweaking both Yankee and Redsox fans

I'll fully concede that Petunia and Cano have been roughly of equivalent value THIS YEAR- note what I said in #225 about what I disagreed with in MHS post.

and relevant to a debate with MHS's #201 (which you dodged) but wholly irrelevant to what I was saying.

No, because what I was saying was that focusing solely on the 2007 season seems to be a Petunia fanboy tactic, especially when you through this in

It was more fun when Cano was way, way worse. It is fun that Cano's beyond insane month has culminated in his just barely catching Pedroia.

Which can be reasonably read to imply that you thought Cano currently matches Petunia only because of the selective endpoint of 8/16/07 where Cano is at the end [presumably/hopefully?] of an insane hot streak.

229. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 16, 2007 at 07:12 PM (#2487664)

I'll fully concede that Petunia and Cano have been roughly of equivalent value THIS YEAR

That's all I was saying. Read the first sentence.

Which can be reasonably read to imply that you thought Cano currently matches Petunia only because of the selective endpoint of 8/16/07 where Cano is at the end [presumably/hopefully?] of an insane hot streak.

Except (a) you have to ignore that I said "this year" in the first sentence and (b) you have to assume that I'm an idiot who would make a case for Pedroia being as good as Cano in projection-value without mentioning anything other than 2007. That's what pissed me off - your reading of my post not only requires ignoring my first sentence, but also requires assuming that I'm an idiot, which you were only too happy to do.

230. Josh Posted: August 16, 2007 at 07:20 PM (#2487678)

I thought all the Pedroia = HOFer posts were to tweak Kevin?

Can we at least all agree that Pedroia > Anderson Hernandez.

231. JPWF13

Posted: August 16, 2007 at 07:22 PM (#2487685)

That's what pissed me off - your reading of my post not only requires ignoring my first sentence, but also requires assuming that I'm an idiot, which you were only too happy to do.

Then I apologize, I don't think you're an idiot, I did think you were a Sox fan/Pedroia fan, and if not I'll apologize for that too.

232. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 16, 2007 at 07:42 PM (#2487728)

Thanks.

(a Sox fan and a Petunia fan, for the record)

233. Josh Posted: August 16, 2007 at 10:20 PM (#2488041)

I thought we banned the Petunia nickname from ST threads, too? Wasn't that a Mets-fan creation?

The more fun threads were always Petunia > David Wright, fwiw.

234. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 16, 2007 at 10:41 PM (#2488060)

I thought we banned the Petunia nickname from ST threads, too? Wasn't that a Mets-fan creation?

levski creation, I believe.

235. Josh Posted: August 17, 2007 at 12:37 PM (#2488593)

levski creation, I believe.

Then we should keep comparing Pedroira to Alberto Callaspo. (What did Temple write when levski brought up that comparison? "Ha" I believe summed it up.)

I'm pretty positive it was Rob Base, fwiw. I recall a Mets thread with Kevin comparing Pedroira (favorably, of course) to David Wright. Base, Sam M, and other Mets fans gave, um, their opinion. The then still named Mikael (iirc) was (somewhat embarrassed, also iirc) giving a very very lukewarm defense to Kevin, and I think I agreed with a Mets fan for the first time in my life. levski just likes to dig at ST posters so often it is hard to remember what he coins and what he parrots.

236. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 17, 2007 at 12:40 PM (#2488595)

I remembered levski, too, but now I think you're right it was Rob Base. Easily the best thing that dude did on this site.

Petunia. Funny.

237. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 17, 2007 at 03:08 PM (#2488724)

Is there anything Levski can't create?

238. JC in DC Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2490302)

Gagne is really struggling. Is there any evidence of injury, as far as anyone knows?

239. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq., LLC Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:13 AM (#2490303)

Is there anything Levski can't create?

Harmony and good feelings?

240. 1k5v3L

Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2490310)

Now now, Larry. I'm trying. I've been awfully nice to Yankee fans lately, haven't I? Not to mention that I've stayed out of Red Sox threads for practically forever. Last time I bugged someone in ST, Callaspo was a top prospect. Heck, these days I even get more grief from Mets fans than I dish out.

Much as I'd like to take credit for Petunia, I also think the name was a Rob Base creation.

241. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:31 AM (#2490313)

GET CANCER ERIC GAGNE SO THE JIMMY FUND CAN REJECT YOU

242. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:34 AM (#2490317)

#### you Eric Gagne.

243. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:54 AM (#2490334)

If Eric Gagne was Korean, they'd never let him back in the F!@3ing country. This is incidentally why Byung-Hyun Kim isn't pitching for a Korean team: He's been exiled for life.

By the way, if Eric Gagne lives through the night, then Red Sox Fandom has officially declared itself sackless. IF he were playing for the raiders he would have died via battery assault already (yes, pun intended)

244. . . . . . . Posted: August 18, 2007 at 04:52 AM (#2490375)

Eric Gagne is taking on the Ramiro Mendoza Memorial "Yankee Secret Agent" position on the Red Sox staff.

245. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 18, 2007 at 02:22 PM (#2490474)

Eric Gagne is taking on the Ramiro Mendoza Memorial "Yankee Secret Agent" position on the Red Sox staff.

I think it's redemption for Embree and Myers.

246. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:26 PM (#2490508)

Eric Gagne is taking on the Ramiro Mendoza Memorial "Yankee Secret Agent" position on the Red Sox staff.

OK, OK, we'll send you Farnsworth and Villone to make up for it.

247. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 19, 2007 at 09:08 PM (#2491772)

The Wildcard chase should be fun!

248. Darren

Posted: August 20, 2007 at 12:57 AM (#2491899)

The Wildcard chase does seem to be what they're interested in, doesn't it? They do not seem at all concerned if they are passed by the Yanks in the standings.

249. Answer Guy. Posted: August 20, 2007 at 02:01 AM (#2491928)

The Wildcard chase does seem to be what they're interested in, doesn't it? They do not seem at all concerned if they are passed by the Yanks in the standings.

I suppose starting Tavarez suggests that but it's not like Tavarez got destroyed. They needed a righty bat and didn't get one and it looks like that may be their downfall. Any lefty the other side throws at the Sox has a chance to pitch a gem.

They're going to have to affirmatively beat the Yankees head to head to hold on to the East now. The last couple of months suggests that they won't be able to do that, but anything can happen over the course of 6 games.

250. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick

Posted: August 20, 2007 at 02:03 AM (#2491930)

I really wouldn't sweat it too much, you guys. The Yanks will be in LA and Detroit in the next week, while the Red Sox get to frolic against the D-Rays and the White Sox, neither of whom are rumored to still be in the American League.

Of course on the 28th the real fun begins.

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