As always you make several good points. It is very annoying to argue with someone intelligent who makes good points but I won't let my incompetence stop me.

This comes down to what I think is our big issue of disagreement. I don't think the Red Sox are better for trading Clay Buchholz than they were not trading him. You are starting from the position of "the Sox have to unload one of these guys" and I'm not at that point. I'm not convinced the Sox are going to put that 13 mil to good use. If they do I will absolutely and happpily mea culpa the hell out of ST.

I do think your case for why they felt they had to make this deal is a good one though. One thing that you crystallized for me here is that I am likely wrong that they would have been able to make this deal on St. Patrick's Day. If you then operate on the assumptions;

1. The Sox have to trade Buchholz (or Pomeranz) and
2. They want someone who will take the whole contract

Then yeah they probably were right to make this deal. I'm still not convinced that number 1 is true but if the Sox felt that way, this is the right call.

Edwin 3/60 to Cleveland. THe money ain't going to him.

FWIW they really like Tobias.

Even RAJ helped!

Yeah, hopefully Tobias can pan out like Holt has.

If you then operate on the assumptions;

1. The Sox have to trade Buchholz (or Pomeranz) and
2. They want someone who will take the whole contract

Then yeah they probably were right to make this deal. I'm still not convinced that number 1 is true but if the Sox felt that way, this is the right call.

We are not in disagreement. You are right that it's still not clear trading Buchholz was a better alternative than keeping him and making another roster move.

But the argument about desperation is the same if they had traded away Pomeranz, or Wright, or Rodriguez, or Hembree, or any other part of the pitching cornucopia. The Red Sox would have been likely to be the team dealing in desperation in late March, had they waited instead of dealing now.

Edwin 3/60 to Cleveland. THe money ain't going to him.

Yeah, I keep thinking at 3 years they should have been in on him. But I have to keep reminding myself that they might have needed to go to 4 years to pry him away, and I don't like him at 4 years nearly as much as I'd tolerate him for 3.

Yeah, hopefully Tobias can pan out like Holt has.

Looking at his MLEs though, I'm not really seeing it. He was a 10th round draft pick as a 22 year old senior. He's been old for every league he's played in professionally and has yet to put up numbers that would draw one's attention (career .301/.362/.439 slash line) He tries to steal an average amount, and succeeds an average amount, in the minors. His BB/K rates are average, in the minors. He has some power but not a lot. His defensive numbers look above average but, since his other numbers indicate only above average speed and quickness at best, it's unlikely he's a defensive wizard. He'll be 24 entering a year in which he'll likely start in high A after doing this (.254/.324/.357) in 146 plate appearances this past season. If he plays well this year, he'll probably jump to AA sometime mid-season. If all goes well, he'll start 2018 in AAA as a 25 year old. If that goes well, he might get a call-up in Sept.

So, the earliest we can expect to see him as a fixture on the roster is the beginning of the 2019 season as a 26 year old rookie, stuck behind a franchise icon. presumably.

Holt's minor league numbers in the Pirates system are noticeably better, and he achieved them while being younger than his league at every level.

If Tobias is a prospect, he better hurry up proving it because I'm not seeing it right now and time is running out.

Clay Buchholz appears to have already thrown his last pitch with the Philadelphia Phillies.

Buchholz had surgery Tuesday to repair a torn flexor tendon in his right forearm. It essentially ends his season with a recovery time of 4-6 months. The surgery was performed by Dr. James Andrews after getting a second opinion from the renowned surgeon Monday.

Right-hander Zach Eflin was called up from Triple-A and starts in Buchholz’s spot Tuesday night against the New York Mets.

Buchholz, 32, made two starts for the Phillies this season, posting a 12.27 ERA (10 earned runs in 7⅓ innings). He was removed in the middle of the third inning April 11 against the Mets after feeling pain in his forearm.

As posted elsewhere. I guess he wouldn't have provided much depth. Incidentally if you didn't catch it Tobias homered minutes after Buchholz left his start.

This thread reminds me to pause for a moment and remember J. Geils.

This thread reminds me to pause for a moment and remember J. Geils.

His blood runs cold...