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Um, slightly more seriously, let's grant for the sake of argument that people here are overly sensitive about your use of the word "gay" as a term of derision -- does that really excuse your using it in the way you did? Let's say they're wrong to think you should be drawn and quartered for using "gay" as a synonym for "lame" -- that doesn't mean that you're right for using it as one, it seems to me. Do you disagree?
He COULD become an average 1b but the odds of him becoming one of the best and most feared hitters in the league are miniscule.
This is a bit of a silly, over the top comparason, no Robert? I'd say that what our young Ballfan did was more akin to using the expression "Jew me down" in place of "haggle", something I heard a lot in PA when I was a kid in the 70's. Offensive enough, but not up to the heinous level of holding big rallies and blaming most of societies' problems on one religious group, as the current Left leadership tends to do to Evangelical and Born-Agains, incidentally.
Bivens, it happens all the time unprovoked, I've mostly stopped reading religious threads because of it. I'll copy and paste 'em and email 'em to you in the future if you'd like to see examples, but I'm guessing you don't.
What gets you cheered in high school is pretty irrelevent here, because this is an adult forum. Here, it's expected that you show some decorum and respect for others.
If only the left could learn to be more like the right, who have worked diligently to unite our nation and focused on solving its problems. Think of how much our lot has improved in the past six years.
Let me guess--you think Serius Jones has better skills than Jin the Emcee?
If PC-ness means that we don't let you get props for the same recycled hateful stereotypes, then count me as a big PC fan.
Oh well, ### for tat then, and la-di da.
I'd say that what our young Ballfan did was more akin to using the expression "Jew me down" in place of "haggle", something I heard a lot in PA when I was a kid in the 70's.
Sorry to hear that you grew up around so many a-holes.
The point of the first (hyperbolic) paragraph was to point out (in perhaps poor fashion) that while, yes, there may be places in which we are not criticized for our actions, the existence of such places does not make such actions acceptable/right/good in other places. For instance, when stranded in the Andes, it may be okay to eat dead rugby players; that does not make cannibalism okay elsewhere...
Or if you prefer a <u>slightly</u> less hyperbolic example, it may be okay while hanging out with one's friends to fart and belch and scratch yourself; their apparent acceptance (in that setting) does not make those actions appealing in other settings. "Well, my friends would applaud me for such actions" is pretty much irrelevant to the point.
Most of 'em never learned any different. There were almost no Jewish people around. Some of them were anti-Semites, but not to the level of any Nazi, of course. It seems/seemed more like the term "chinese home run", which I'd wager most Chinese guys are not enamored with, rightfully and understanably so, but was/is not uttered out of any particular hated of the chinese people, its seems more a matter of people saying something that they just say without knowing that others would feel hurt by it. Ignorance, but not hate.
i'd have to agree with this.
Are those the dudes who worship the spaghetti monster?
you know it!
LOL,and I call "BS". Especially to THIS gem: Some of them were anti-Semites, but not to the level of any Nazi, of course.
Make me laugh-out-mother-humping-loud, why don't you? It's nice to hear that your neighbors wouldn't gas me. Keep me out of their country club: yes, but gas me? No. Thanks.
"Not knowing that others would feel hurt by it?" What kind of arrested developement spawns that BS? Please. You're digging it deeper and deeper.
Also, I find the trivialization of the word "rape" to be almost as offensive. The word describes about the worst thing that could happen to someone, and people use it in such meaningless ways.
1. Ignorance that people have the same amount of humanity that you do.
2. Ignorance of your own ability to treat others atrociously, not out of hate, but more envy and self-absorbedness.
And, of course, tfbg9's "of course" is a self-righteous reflex which is fr from provable and not particularly likely. Put Adolph Hitler in 1970s New Jersey and he might be just another Archie Bunker. Put tfbg9 (or any other reasonably intelligent rightist) in the Weimar Republic, and he might very well become a dastardly political leader; the latter is an environment where it's easier to talk loudly, gain followers, and sweep into power.
1)Have they learned by now? I wonder.
2)I suppose you can say the same for gagne et al... they haven't learned any different. Which is pretty scary, since they're in school, where they're supposed to, you know, learn. Makes you wonder what they're being taught.
if by COULD, you mean ALREADY HAS, then I agree.
HA...in theory, sure.
In reality? not so much
In other words, let's assume it was hyperbolic, and go on to the larger point: that the (theoretically) accepted use of "gay" as a synonym for "lame" in one context does not mean that its use is acceptable in (perhaps many) other contexts.
I grew up in a town where no one was Jewish (no Latinos or African-Americans either). The term \"##### him down" was a common expression when we were growing up. I don't think any of us knew the origins of the phrase, and we certainly would have been surprised to find someone offended by it. So was life in rural Western New York.
if by COULD, you mean ALREADY HAS, then I agree.
WHAT? why are you talking about baseball on this thread...were supposed to be calling each other gay or Nazi.
Anyway.
Choi hasnt done it over a full season. Sure thats partly because of lack of opportunity but also because of a lack of consistancy. At any rate, to say he has any real chance of becoming David Ortiz is so blatently wrong its obscene
Of course all of those cheers would be mock cheers.
Ok. So we've learned that your and tfbg9's hometowns didn't have an abundance of deep thinkers. That's an excuse, to an extent, I guess.
I was with you on everything else, but, come on, is this really any worse than saying, "Man, the Astros just got murdered in the World Series"?
I'm teaching her how to send belch odor across a dinner table with subtlety.
I don't feel that the kid's "lyrics" and anti-semetism are incompapable. I said that Ggane 55's offensive remarks were closer to my two examples than any Nuremburg rally-type stuff. As a matter of fact' I remember guys who were way left of center, barely Democrats even, circa 1985, saying stuff like "he was acting really gay", when they meant acting in an embarassing way. These were college guys down at Rutgers, weirdo WFMU listenin', frat-hating nerd-rocker types who ironically had all of REM's records. It was just something people said without thinking. I don't feel it comes even close to rising to the level of hate, maybe you do. But how could it be possible, Bivens, Vaux, Eraser X? I mean, they attending a University, NEVER went to church, and they all voted for MONDALE!!!
Wow, Vaux thinks I'm reasonably intellegent, might have leadership qualities and charisma, and I'm some sort of anti-semetic fascist. He also apparently thinks that were it not for a monsterous corporate/government conspiracy, we'd all be zipping around in flying cars. He really does.
vaux is really out there. he also thinks the rangers have a shot at the al west. ha!
<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
21 A+ 61 239 .331 .390 .556
21 AA 69 258 .322 .376 .585
21 AAA 10 42 .214 .256 .524
21 MLB 15 49 .327 .353 .449
<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
21 A+ 96 345 .296 .369 .533
21 AA 36 122 .303 .419 .623
At age 21, they look pretty similar to me.
<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
22 AAA 11 37 .243 .305 .486
22 MLB 86 278 .277 .371 .446
<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
22 AAA 77 266 .229 .313 .417
Ortiz is clearly better as a 22 year-old.
<u><b>Ortiz</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
23 AAA 130 476 .315 .415 .590
23 MLB 10 20 .000 .200 .000
24 MLB 130 415 .282 .364 .446
<u><b>Choi</b></u>:
age lvl games AB AVG OBP SLG
23 AAA 135 478 .287 .406 .513
23 MLB 24 50 .180 .281 .320
24 AAA 18 66 .258 .351 .621
24 MLB 80 202 .218 .350 .421
And Ortiz is better at 23 and 24, though Choi has made up some of the age-22 gap, I think. Choi's average is alarmingly low at 24, but he's making up for it with walks and power.
I'm not saying that Choi is going to be the next Ortiz (I've never said it, nor will I ever say it), but comparisons between the two aren't obscene. If it's unlikely that Choi turns out to be the next Ortiz, it's as much because it was unlikely for Ortiz to become the first Ortiz as anything else. Ortiz became better than Choi at age 22, but they were once even and Choi was not THAT much worse at age 23 and age 24.
Which is what I said right before this thread went to hell.
"I'm not saying that Choi is going to be the next Ortiz (I've never said it, nor will I ever say it), but comparisons between the two aren't obscene. If it's unlikely that Choi turns out to be the next Ortiz, it's as much because it was unlikely for Ortiz to become the first Ortiz as anything else."
You are exactly right
I agree that they are comparable but to expect lighjting to hit twice aint wise.
AFter all, we dont go around looking at guys w track records similar to Pujols' minor league career and getting this jumpy do we?
I was just expressing my relief that all your neighbors would be able to visit upon me was exclusion. Really. I'm grateful.
As a matter of fact' I remember guys who were way left of center, barely Democrats even, circa 1985, saying stuff like "he was acting really gay", when they meant acting in an embarassing way. These were college guys down at Rutgers, weirdo WFMU listenin', frat-hating nerd-rocker types who ironically had all of REM's records. It was just something people said without thinking. I don't feel it comes even close to rising to the level of hate, maybe you do. But how could it be possible, Bivens, Vaux, Eraser X? I mean, they attending a University, NEVER went to church, and they all voted for MONDALE!!!
I love anecdotes.
By the way, 1985 was 21 years ago, and, assuming what you're re-telling here is accurate, really doesn't let gagne off the hook, as much as you'd like it to.
And if your acquaintances were truly "far left of center", they wouldn't have voted for Mondale. They would have voted for Jesse Jackson or some other 3rd or 4th party candidate. But there's YOUR bias showing.
1 - I think 95% of the time it's used without any thought whatsoever, and that this is really unfortunate. It's something that I heard all the time in HS in Iowa (and would chastise people for). My 14-year old sister says it (and I chastise her for it). People don't generally say it around me after I call them out on it. I think that most just never thought/think about what they're actually saying until I bring it up.
2 - Calling people out on such usage is quite proper. For instance, if my sister were to stop calling things gay, then that would be numerous prevented instances of possible harm and confusion to one of the closeted gays that almost certainly exist at her HS.
3 - Those things said, I highly doubt that Gagne_55 meant any offense or is even homophobic. He seems to also be aware that the term is offensive, and I doubt that he uses it again in this context.
Excuse me, but then why did he mention Sam M in the same sentence? Coincidence?
but his rhymes are likely to continue sucking.
Hee Seop Choi's #1 PECOTA comparable: David Ortiz"
"PJMartinez Posted: March 25, 2006 at 09:30 AM (#1917679)
....David Ortiz supposedly had holes in his swing before coming to Boston (like Choi, after his age 26 season). He was coming off his best season, in which he hit 20 HRs in 412 ABs, hitting 339/500 overall.
Choi last year was only 336/453, but he's had a harder time getting ABs than Ortiz did (who played when healthy). Choi did look great in his last half-season in FLA; given his track record up that point, I tend to think that wasn't a fluke, and that he can become a solid 360/500 hitter.
....The parallel with 2003 and Ortiz/Giambi/Hillenbrand/Millar is an interesting one, but all those guys were young-ish and unestablished, which is not exactly the case with Snow and Lowell."
I thought there were more than that but i guess those were voices in my head...and some posters on SIckles site
Excuse me while I bother to actually read the reference...
Please be careful. He'll take that as a challenge.
I certainly grew up in an environment lacking diversity. Even in college I didn't have a close black or Jewish friend. Not being particulary close to people from these groups makes it tough to really learn much about their cultures. Until recently most of what I knew about judiasm was from bad Adam Sandler songs and discussions of Sandy Koufax missing playoff games for Yom Kippur. Media portrayal is much more infuential when you don't know many people who don't look like you.
Optometry school made me much more culturally aware. ~30% of my classmates are Asian/Indian. Almost all of the clinic staff are black. Many of the faculty are Jewish. It's a different world than the one I lived in 8 years ago. Maybe Gagne just hasn't been exposed to different people/viewpoints at this point in his life.
None of this changes the fact that Gagne made a shitty rap, the fact that the Dodgers made a poor move in dumping Choi, or the fact that Choi isn't Ortiz. However, Choi has the ability to be a very valuable piece in a platoon (multi-axis?) role. At this point he probably has been under-exposed to LHP to the point where it will be difficult for him to recover well enough to ever be a legitimate everyday 1B. This is an excellent pick-up for Boston.
And not knowing much about "their cultures" has what to do with using the term \"##### him down"? Is there no inference to be drawn from such a term? Or am I right about your hometown?
If and ethnic slur is uttered, and no minorities are around, can minorities still be offended?
Can inference be drawn from the term? Yes. Do people draw that inference? Maybe. Maybe not. I think it's just a part of the lexicon of such areas. Hopefully that continues to change, and does so rapidly.
Right. So that's why Klan meetings where there are no lynchings are harmless.
This defense is worse than what he did in the first place. Anyone can make a poor choice of words but when that person doesn't recognize it when it is pointed out to them they move from inconsiderate to fallen.
The term didn't exist in a vacuum. The 8-10 year olds learned it from SOMEONE who knew what it meant. DUH.
This defense is worse than what he did in the first place. Anyone can make a poor choice of words but when that person doesn't recognize it when it is pointed out to them they move from inconsiderate to fallen.
Yeah, that's the point in the thread where I got a bit angry.
Clearly someone knew what it meant. I think most likely it was someone's parents or older sibling though.
Please, quit while you still think you're ahead.
this calls for a wife-beating joke.
Sorry. I didn't provide any context for that, and I didn't mean to imply that such words are harmless. Indeed, their use perpetuates the line of thinking that led to this whole discussion.
I mostly meant to demonstrate what the line of thinking is in such places.
Conversation with a friend after I had recently met him in high school:
Him: [called something "Jewish"]
Me: Not cool. You know I'm Jewish right?
Him: OMIGOD I'M SO SORRY! YOU KNOW I DIDNT MEAN ANYTHING BY THAT RIGHT?!?!?!
Me: Yeah, I know, it's cool.
Him: Dude, I am SO sorry.
Me: [laughing] I'm not really Jewish, but that's still not cool.
Yeah, because you clearly know what I knew and when I knew it as a kid.
Am I being confused with someone else here?
hey! just cuz i'm capitalization impaired doesn't mean i'm not a person, too!
Wrong, and comically so. A vote for a fringe candidate is essentially a wasted vote, ask Al Gore or Bush the Elder. This is a notion even mid-80's Rutgers undergrads managed to pick up on, and you apparently haven't, Joe. Besides, by your reasoning, Jessie is a known Jew-hater, because he once famoulsy uttered an anti-Jew remark.
I wasn't trying to let Gagne 55 off the hook or whatever, I called for him to apologize. And he has yet to-shame on him.
I used to use the word from time to time. I had no idea that it was connected to gypsies and I think that a reasonable person shouldn't be expected to know.
Therefore, I don't think that it's offensive to use it if you don't know what it means.
Well, as long as the Three Asian Musketeers of Primer aren't around, you guys can do whatever the F!@# you want.
#####
What about "PWNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111" Does that racially affect any races whose name cnotains a P, W, and N?
OK i got nothin' on this one. Covelli is right. My jokes suck. I need to back and make fun of Levski
of course you can't fault somebody for using an offensive term if they don't know it's offensive. however, when you learn where the word comes from and why it's offensive, you should change your ways. the thing about the term "gypped" is that it's actually believable for an adult american to not know where the term came from.
what you need to do is buy that plane ticket to thailand.
Don't let Bivens find out.
If a term that was DEFINITELY offensive and derogatory to a certain group of people, but in the years of Societal Change/English Language Degradation people no longer get the reference to that group, is it still offensive? Does the simple "history" of the word make it offensive, or do people have to "get it" to count?
LOL
Btw, I have no idea where the word "honkey" comes from, so just wanted to let all y'all player-haters out there know that.
What's why lounges are deleted on a regular basis right?
Ok my jokes suck this morning, despite the INCREDIBLE potential of this thread to come up with Insta-Primeys.
I'm going back to sleep.
well, no. it could still be offensive. but you could call it an accident or whatever and not do it again. that seems reasonable to me.
Denounce away!
Wok, here's a better one: if a bunch of men are stranded on a desert island with a very limilted supply of food to sustain them until recuse arrives, should they divide the food up absolutely evenly, or should the short fats guys like McNally get less?
I agree. You should apologize and try not to do it again.
Honky-tonk?
There's the problem - they should have been listening to WRSU.
"Btw, I have no idea where the word "honkey" comes from"
Pissed-off, overly caffinated caucasoids stuck in traffic on the Harlem River Drive just opposite the PJ's.
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