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— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

Monday, July 17, 2023

Three Trades

Well the Red Sox are throwing down the gauntlet to even the most skeptical among us. This may not be a great team but they ARE in playoff contention and you don’t sit back and wait in years where that happens.  At the same time I think most Sox fans want the right mix of going for it and not giving up the future.  That should probably create a bit of a challenge for GM Chaim Bloom and his merry band of number crunchers as July 31 approaches.  There is still a pretty sizable part of me that thinks the best thing the Sox can do is just sit tight and dance with who brung ‘em.  But let’s consider some possible options if they do NOT do that.

First things first though is the basic question of “what do the Sox need?”  Well for my money there are three key areas where the Sox need some help;

- another reliable reliever - someone that can lock down the innings that in a perfect world John Schreiber would have been locking down.
- a front-ish of the rotation starter - the last two World Series titles featured Nathan Eovaldi and Jake Peavy as midseason acquisitions.  Something along those lines.
- a middle infielder - either shortstop or second base in the hopes that by the middle of next month Trevor Story is occupying the spot this guy doesn’t play.

So here are three proposals.  As always the idea here is to look at what the Sox might need to surrender to fill these holes;

Red Sox get: David Robertson
Mets get: Wilyer Abreu, David Hamilton

Why it works: Robertson is a one year guy so the Mets have no particular incentive to keep him around.  Abreu is the prize here, he’s a decent near-MLB ready outfielder that can almost certainly replicate the performance of either Sterling Marte or Daniel Vogelbach.  Adding Hamilton in gives the Mets a bit of needed athleticism on a team that seems to be lacking it.

Could it happen: Yeah I think this is feasible.  I think the issue here is if the Sox are higher on Abreu than I am.

Red Sox get: Ha-Seong Kim
Padres get: Nick Yorke, Roman Anthony, Mikey Romero

Why it works: This season has jumped right past the handbasket and through the gates of hell on the Padres.  Kim is an extremely good player though it’s fair to question if that gaudy WAR is artificially inflated by his defense though his defense is excellent.  Kim/Story up the middle would be an awfully good mix going into next season (Kim is signed through next year).  The Padres get some talent here with Yorke and Anthony both top 100 picks (Baseball America “promoted” Anthony last week) and Romero is the 2022 first rounder who is off to a good start in his career.

Could it happen: I don’t think so.  I suspect the Padres are looking for someone a bit more certain than any of these three prospects for Kim.  If you told me one of these three guys will turn into a good MLB player I’d take that action, if you asked me to say which of them will with any confidence I would not be able too.

Red Sox get: Lucas Giolito
White Sox get: Shane Drohan, Chase Meidroth, Byran Mata

Why it works: The White Sox are doing their best to rehabilitate damage done to Tony LaRussa’s reputation by demonstrating fairly conclusively that last season wasn’t the manager’s fault (only).  Giolito is a free agent at the end of the year and Drohan and Meidroth are relatively close to being MLB ready while Mata is a lottery ticket.  The likelihood of him becoming something has to be heavily questioned as his right arm is made of glass but when he’s right he’s electric.

Could it happen: Not sure here.  I honestly don’t love this deal for either side.  I’m not sure I’m sold on Giolito.but at the same time I wouldn’t be shocked if the White Sox can do considerably better here.

Other Thoughts:

- I’ve loved what Jarren Duran has done this year but he has a .425 BABIP.  I think he’s going to be a good MLB player moving forward but if the Sox have a chance to make a splash of some sort I’d be cool with making Duvall the everyday centerfielder and moving Duran.  I think this becomes relevant if the Sox get a chance to do what we saw last year with guys like Jose Berrios and Luis Castillo moved. 

- It ain’t going to be Shohei Ohtani.  I’d give up the world for him though.

- For my money Meidroth, Anthony and Drohan are the guys most likely to get moved.  They are good enough to get something in return but not so good that the Sox would not want to deal them.

- I do not really expect the Sox to do anything big.  I think Miguel Bleis getting hurt really puts the squeeze on that.  Had Bleis stayed healthy the Sox potentially would have been looking at two top 50 prospects in him and Marcelo Mayer and maybe they decide to move one and keep one (e.g. Yoan Moncada or Rafael Devers in the Chris Sale trade).

Jose is an Absurd Sultan Posted: July 17, 2023 at 02:09 PM | 17 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Darren Posted: July 17, 2023 at 05:15 PM (#6137322)
Red Sox get: Ha-Seong Kim
Padres get: Nick Yorke, Roman Anthony, Mikey Romero


My immediate reaction was: No! How dare you!

But Kim is a really good player at a position of need, only 27, and he's signed for cheap for 2024 with an option for 2025. He has a lot of value. I think the big sticking point is Anthony, who is currently demolishing high A to the tune of .343/.482/.821, leading to his prospect status skyrocketing (top 10 per Prospectus!). I just can't see them giving him up in addition to Yorke and Romero. Even straight up for him, I don't think it happens.

For the two one-year pitching rentals, I guess they're reasonable deals? I don't like giving up Meidroth unless other teams are valuing him quite highly, but I can see the argument for that deal. Is Gioloto enough a difference-maker that 2 months of his services are worth those players? I'm on the fence. I'd be more willing to trade a larger package for someone locked up for a couple of years.
   2. villageidiom Posted: July 17, 2023 at 05:37 PM (#6137325)
It ain’t going to be Shohei Ohtani.  I’d give up the world for him though.
I wouldn't give up the world for 3 months of him. He's going to free agency no matter where he ends the season.
   3. Darren Posted: July 17, 2023 at 05:55 PM (#6137328)
- I’ve loved what Jarren Duran has done this year but he has a .425 BABIP. I think he’s going to be a good MLB player moving forward but if the Sox have a chance to make a splash of some sort I’d be cool with making Duvall the everyday centerfielder and moving Duran. I think this becomes relevant if the Sox get a chance to do what we saw last year with guys like Jose Berrios and Luis Castillo moved.


I feel just about exactly the same way. Love Duran and I think he's made a step forward to being a likely average or better player. But with Rafaela in AAA and looking good, I'd deal him for a difference maker who's locked up for a couple of years.
   4. Darren Posted: July 17, 2023 at 05:59 PM (#6137329)
For my money Meidroth, Anthony and Drohan are the guys most likely to get moved. They are good enough to get something in return but not so good that the Sox would not want to deal them.


Drohan I could see for sure. He's got some buzz but it's possible they don't think he's as good as the hype. I think they'd part with Meidroth but I just don't see him as particularly likely to be dealt. I think they like him and I don't think other teams are especially interested in him. I'm curious why you think he's more likely to go than some other folks?

And to reiterate what I said above, I think Anthony does not fit into the "good enough to get something in return but not so good that the Sox would not want to deal them" camp. He's right behind Mayer in terms of untouchableness, which yes, is a word now.
   5. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 17, 2023 at 10:41 PM (#6137345)
I would consider trading Duran for pitching help or a SS if other teams think Duran has turned a corner, and that his improvements this year are sustainable. The problem is that Duvall has been so bad since he came back from injury that you can't really trade Duran without creating a hole in CF.

Duvall since coming back:

99 PAs
7 BBs
38 Ks
.172/.253/.333
BABIP is .250, so maybe a little bad luck there, but when you strike out 38 times in 99 PAs, you're starting off in a bad place.

I firmly believe Bloom will treat 2023 like he treated 2021: if he can make improvements on the margins (like he did with Robles and Austin Davis) or maybe get a discount on an impact player who might have injury concerns (like Schwarber, who ended up being a great pickup), then he'll do it. But I can't believe he'd trade any legit prospect to improve a team that he likely sees as not a true contender.

Mata as a lottery ticket is very likely to be the price for an "around the edges" pickup. Mata is already taking a 40-man spot, which is hurting the team when they are playing musical chairs at the back of the bullpen to try to manage these "bullpen games", because he is absolutely no help to the team in 2023. And after this season, he is out of options - so he is of no use to the team going forward. Trading him for help would be like when they traded Michael Chavis for Austin Davis.

Dalbec is another guy who could go in a similar type of deal. Blaze Jordan is about the best prospect I could see Bloom trading in 2023, if they were trying to get a bigger impact, Schwarber-type deal.
   6. dirk Posted: July 18, 2023 at 10:08 AM (#6137356)
duvall is 34, and no one thought he should be playing center when he was 25. i think that hot start put the k. hernandez halo on him, where it's easy to forget that guys in their 30s just don't play up the middle unless they have an established history of excellence, (and/or low k rate), which neither have. even if duran comes back to earth and is below average, his speed doesn't slump and he's years younger than duvall.

it wouldn't be expensive prospect-wise to ready this team for a stretch run. this team needs another starter and bullpen guy, and they'll be improved by dealing or removing things that are hurting them, (old guys playing out of position).

   7. dirk Posted: July 18, 2023 at 10:16 AM (#6137357)
i also think they are about to compound a mistake by putting story at SS again. out hitting arroyo at 2nd shouldn't be a great feat, but i'm not sure it will happen. out-defensing chang at SS certainly won't.
   8. Darren Posted: July 18, 2023 at 10:18 AM (#6137358)
I firmly believe Bloom will treat 2023 like he treated 2021: if he can make improvements on the margins (like he did with Robles and Austin Davis) or maybe get a discount on an impact player who might have injury concerns (like Schwarber, who ended up being a great pickup), then he'll do it. But I can't believe he'd trade any legit prospect to improve a team that he likely sees as not a true contender.


Totally agree that this will be Bloom's approach. However, I also think there's a small possibility they see a big move/playoff push as a chance to win back the fan base.
   9. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 18, 2023 at 02:15 PM (#6137382)
The team may say it is doing two "bullpen games" every time around the 5-man rotation, but the reality is that Pivetta is their 4th starter. He just comes in a few innings into the game. He's pitched 15 innings in his last three appearances, with 27 strikeouts, 5 BBs, 6 hits, and only 3 earned runs allowed.

Because he is pitching so well, he is allowing the team to not have to use a second "bulk" reliever. They use the opener for 1 or 2 innings; then Pivetta for 4-6 innings, then depending on the score of the game, one of the their high or low-leverage pitchers per inning for the last inning or two.

The upshot of this is that the other "bullpen game" every five days is a combination of Winckowski, Walter, and Murphy. This is a really delicate balance, and I give Cora credit for figuring it out. But remember that last year, there was a stretch from early May to late June where Pivetta was just like this: basically unhittable. In that 11-start stretch last year, he pitched 74 innings, 49 hits, 70 Ks to only 19 BBs, ERA of 1.95. He was crazy. But before and after that stretch, he was awful. This is Pivetta - so let's wring it out for everything we can, knowing sometime later this season he will likely turn back into a pumpkin. The hope is that when it inevitably happens, Sale, Houck, and/or Whitlock will be back, so it won't have a ripple effect across the staff.
   10. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: July 18, 2023 at 04:12 PM (#6137391)
I was thinking "why not put Pivetta back into the rotation, as he's pitching so well lately?", but I think part of the reason he's having this success is that he doesn't have to face the top of the order immediately, and allows him to face somewhat lesser batters and get into a good rhythm without the danger of facing the top of the order right away. Once he gets rolling, he's pretty good.

I'd continue with what's been working until it doesn't work any more.
   11. dirk Posted: July 25, 2023 at 06:40 PM (#6137542)
i can't believe the sox got two live human pitchers for k. hernandez.
   12. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 27, 2023 at 09:32 PM (#6137595)
I agree with #11 on the Hernandez trade. The Red Sox saved about $1.1m from the trade, and one of the guys they got from LA will be an upgrade from the last guy in their bullpen (right now, Justin Garza).

I've been skeptical of Verdugo all year, and he continues to float like a leaf from a tree, inevitably landing where he has established he should: a 105 OPS+ guy with average power and speed, and slightly above-average defense. With Yoshida, Casas, Turner, and Duran all playing well, Devers back to his high standard, Wong contributing a little bit, Verdugo's reversion back towards the mean doesn't feel so bad. But, man, he has been pretty crappy for quite a while.

Since May 10th:
Verdugo: 55 GP, 243 PAs, 2 HRs, .241/.317/.370
Casas: 58 GP, 216 PAs, 11 HRs, .298/.389/.553

Why Verdugo continues to hit higher up in the lineup than Verdugo baffles me. Verdugo is going to make $10m or so next year, and then be a free agent. If he can command value on the trade market now - or next off season - then let's do it.
   13. Darren Posted: July 27, 2023 at 10:32 PM (#6137604)
I bet Verdugo remaining higher up in the lineup had something to do with stuff that happened before the magical May 10.
   14. villageidiom Posted: July 28, 2023 at 11:05 AM (#6137623)
Verdugo is hitting .244/.307/.386 since he was benched in Cleveland for not hustling. It's a smaller sample but seems relevant when questioning how Cora is using him.
   15. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: July 28, 2023 at 01:20 PM (#6137631)
I bet Verdugo remaining higher up in the lineup had something to do with stuff that happened before the magical May 10.


I get that the date May 10th is arbitrary, but a few things:

1) I get why Cora might see the performance from the 5-6 weeks of the season (158 PAs, .317/.386/.514) and stick with him for a while, to see if that is a new level of performance. But it's been 2 1/2 months since then, and in a larger sample, he'd been pretty lousy. At some point - especially when other guys in the lineup have trended up from slow starts, like Casas - you've got to make a change in your lineup and/or order.

2) I think comparing a player's performance from the beginning of the season to a certain date, and then since that date, is a fairer point to make than if you just take a random several weeks sandwiched by time before and after it. Baseball (and most sports, really) is a game of adjustments. Verdugo appears like he made some adjustments this off season that increased his power, for example (and the TV guys were talking about some of those adjustments to his body, his stance, and his approach). But then the pitchers make an adjustment, and the trick is...can Verdugo adjust again? I think he's probably better than he's been during the last 55 games, but in this lineup, he probably doesn't belong in the top five of this team's lineup card.

3) A big part of how the team has been able to succeed despite a lot of problems at 2B and SS is the exceeded expectations of several players, especially Duran. Yoshida and Duran have been outstanding, for the most part. I am confident that Yoshida is the real thing - I think this is his real level of ability. Do we think Duran is playing at a new, sustainable level of ability?
   16. villageidiom Posted: July 28, 2023 at 02:30 PM (#6137632)
On Duran... yes and no. I think that Duran's ability is greater than his history, and that he can sustain a higher level of play than what we saw before this year. However, that sustainably higher level of play is lower than what we've seen this season. Dude has a .407 BABIP this year. He is making better quality contact, and that brings better results, and a fast guy can usually produce a higher BABIP for the same contact... But I don't see him sustaining .400. Maybe .350 but I think a touch lower than that.
   17. Darren Posted: July 28, 2023 at 03:46 PM (#6137637)
Totally agree that adjustments account for a lot of the streaks by players. But ...

1) the May 10 date is still a arbitrary.

2) Even if you think that somehow that date is when one of these guys made an adjustment, why use it for both?

3) If we agree that players go through streaks of overperforming and underperforming, then verdugo is due for an upswing AND Casas is due for a slump as pitchers adjust to him.



On Duran, I'm with VI. I think he's an above average player but probably not the all-star went been watching.

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