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Sox Therapy — Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox Monday, June 26, 2023Where We Headed?So I’ve been pondering this a bit lately and jacksone made the following comment that I think helped me narrow my thoughts down; What do all of you expect or hope for next year? Because for me, this team and organization is still a year away from legit contention. There may be a solid wild card run next in ‘24, but I am not expecting any sort of postseason success. 2025, for sure, I expect them to contend and be a legit force. With that in mind, why get someone like Lynn that costs prospects and doesn’t help ‘25? I mean, FA, go ####### wild, but don’t give up assets for this year or the next. I almost entirely agree with the second line but the first line I’m not sure I’m sold on. This has felt very much like a .500 team from day one and nothing I’ve seen makes me feel any different going forward. Importantly they are doing this with some new players under club control contributing in positive ways. Yoshida is proving himself worth the money (at least offensively), after a slow start Casas is looking like a good MLB first baseman (again, offensively) with a .262/.353/.455 line since May 1 and Connor Wong is somewhat surprisingly becoming a legitimate MLB catcher. Add in some encouraging work in the minors from guys like Rafaella and Yorke and a few little wins in the bullpen particularly Josh Winckowski and there are some positives. But the most important thing for this team, and any team really, is starting pitching. The game and pitcher usage has changed over the years but it all, ahem, starts with the starters. If you can’t trust the guys early in the games to give you a chance to win there ain’t much you can do to fix that. With that in mind I think this year is both a success and a sign of why the Sox can be very good in 2024. Beyond that there is a case to aggressively go after a legit starting pitcher right now though as I touched on in the other thread I suspect finding one (and Lance Lynn ain’t it) at a price worth paying isn’t likely. But let’s look at some numbers; Bello - 8-4 30-22 (93-69 pace) Everyone else - 10-17 (60-102 pace) This is far from thorough study. Every team is going to use their 6-7-8 starters at some point. It feels like the Sox have used those guys a LOT and have done a very poor job of filling those slots. Admittedly, a big chunk of this is the poor performances by Corey Kluber and Nick Pivetta (7-10 in starts by those two). These are pitchers the Sox were counting on and while I had no problem with that when the year started it’s clear those decisions failed. Pivetta at least seems to be turning into a pretty strong reliever and I like the guy so I’m enjoying that. My point though is this. This feels a fair amount like 2015 though maybe to jacksone’s point it’s 2014. Mookie/Marcelo isn’t here yet, Xander/Triston is finding his footing and JBJ/Ceddanne is still a work in progress. But in the winter of 2015/2016 the Sox made the splash for David Price and while Price’s Red Sox tenure wasn’t quite what we’d hoped he was largely down to injury he was very good (118 ERA+) and in 2016 pitched well (112 ERA+) while backed by Cy Porcello. Unlike that 2015/2016 team the current Sox DO have a guy you might predict to make such a leap in the form of Brayan Bello. I think the Sox can be legitimate contenders in 2024 with some pitching improvements which should be more than doable. Getting back to my earlier point the Sox are 40-39 and a whopping 3 games out of a Wild Card spot. Rob Bradford made the point this morning that the Mariners were in a similar place last year when they acquired Luis Castillo and Carlos Santana and promptly went on a tear. I don’t know if the Sox can make such a deal (see my post #61 in the prior thread) but I don’t think it’s unreasonable that such a thing could be done this winter either through free agency or some kind of trade. On a general front the Sox feel very much like they’ve gotten what they want from their top end guys (save the underwhelming Devers who I suspect is pressing) but have some serious black holes cough *shortstop* cough and in the rotation where there have been too many “give away” starts. This month they are 12-12 with three losses by more than 3 runs; 6-2 to Tampa, the start by Dermody in Cleveland and the start by Garza in Minnesota. And speaking of being .500 their month to month records this year are 15-14 (April), 13-13 (May), 12-12 (June). To paraphrase Kevin Costner one more win every other week would have them 46-33 and comfortably in a Wild Card spot. My point is not that they should go balls to the wall this year, there are still too many holes and I would rather see the development of the in house guys. But I think to jacksone’s point there is a very reasonable path to being a legitimate contender in 2024. Jose is an Absurd Sultan
Posted: June 26, 2023 at 08:56 AM | 34 comment(s)
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1. villageidiom Posted: June 26, 2023 at 11:05 AM (#6134937)I mean, a few months back I described their rotation as "a committee of Porcellos". But they haven't even gotten that, because as they went into the Porcelloverse they got all the injured Porcellos or ineffective Porcellos. If they got the durable-but-mediocre Porcello that would be an improvement.
So then it comes back to health. We tend to think of health - especially pitcher health - as a random thing, can't help it, can't prevent it. But it seems to me that Boston has a pretty nasty habit of pitcher injuries (a) happening and (b) being misdiagnosed and (c) taking longer to recover from. Maybe that's a misperception on my part, but that's the way it seems to me. I'd think they could get more improvement in their record if they could solve that issue than if they could land a #1 starter.
But I'm also not opposed to giving up real talent to get multiple years of a #1-2 starter, mainly because there's no way the team is going to be willing to give out the 6+ year contract it's going to take to get one in free agency. In doing so, I'd look to trade from second base, where Meidroth's emergence may make Yorke expendable, and CF, where both Duran and Rafaela have the most value.
After 2024, Sale's salary falls off the books, and they should think of that money as then transferable to partially pay for a legit front-line starter to pair with Bello as a 1-2 top of the rotation.
But I wouldn't be giving up any of the still-limited number of higher-end prospects they have. I think they have six guys with a legit chance of making a difference in the bigs: Mayer, Bleis, Rafaela, Yorke, Drohan, and Roman Anthony. Bleis and Anthony are far, far away; the other four could theoretically all be on the Red Sox by the end of 2024, and they would all address needs: SS, 2B, CF, SP.
If you look at how the best starting pitchers were generally acquired by their current teams, I think you'll find it is generally not trades. For example, the top 10 pitchers in WAR right now include six who were developed by their current team; three who were free agents; and one (Sonny Gray) who was traded to his current team.
I know Sale was traded to Boston, but given that the Red Sox appear poised to have about 3/5ths of a quality rotation filled by in-house options for 2024-2025 (Bello, Whitlock, and Houck/Drohan), I'd like to see the team either swing big for a free agent starter who is a legit top-of-the-rotation guy (and pay him), or give it one more year with the young guys, get whatever you can out of Sale, and let his contract expire at the end of 2024.
Then, you start 2025 with a lineup that includes Rafaela, Mayer, Yorke, Casas, Devers, Yoshida, Story in there somewhere, and a C and RF. I can get excited about a future like that.
I'm sold on Bello as having #2 talent with a shot at being an ace. Whitlock, I'm just not sure. Bad luck and bad defense have made it hard to tell with him, but I'm worried about those home runs. As much as I want them to keep sending him out there to start, I'm starting to think he might end up back in the pen. Houck, on the other hand, has convinced me he's a #4ish starter at least. He may not give you much length but it's quality.
I don't know what to think about Drohan. His brief success in AA (and apparent glowing scouting reports I guess) have landed him in the futures game on on everyone's radar. I hope they're right!
Definitely would like to see this myself. Listed below are the pending 2024 FA, obviously not all of these guys will be available, but who's on the wishlist?
I am leery of Sonny Gray, he flamed out in NY, and I do think there is something to certain markets that can affect guys
I like Giolito personally. May not be a top CY contender every year, but he could be looking for two more contracts instead of one last blaze of glory. Might go with a higher AAV, shorter contract that allows for another age 33/34 FA contract. Knowing Sale (and Jansen) is off the books after '24 that could allow the Sox to go for another top pitcher in '25. Giolito, Bello, + top FA would certainly be a very, very nice start to a contending '25 rotation. '25 payroll for the Sox is Story, Devers, & Yoshida, with a few FA holes that may need to be filled with medium sized deals (Duvall, Verdugo, Pivetta, "closer".
Trevor Bauer *
Carlos Carrasco
Mike Clevinger
Alex Cobb *
Yu Darvish
Jack Flaherty
Chris Flexen
Lucas Giolito
Sonny Gray
Kyle Hendricks *
Jakob Junis
Brad Keller
Lance Lynn *
Kenta Maeda
Tyler Mahle
German Marquez *
Nick Martinez *
Frankie Montas
Jordan Montgomery
Charlie Morton *
Aaron Nola
Jake Odorizzi
Shohei Ohtani
James Paxton
Martin Perez *
Eduardo Rodriguez *
Hyun-Jin Ryu
Luis Severino
Max Scherzer *
Blake Snell
Marcus Stroman
Jose Ureña *
Adam Wainwright
Alex Wood
Maybe? I think he's just young. He'll probably never be a Gold Glover but he should improve to adequate (see Devers, Rafael).
I've seen a lot of fans say that the problem is the team's inconsistency, but I might tweak that a bit. I think the team's hallmark thus far is that it has generally been unable to get a critical mass of the team's core on track at the same time:
- The first few weeks, Adam Duvall was Babe Ruth. He got hurt, and Jarred Duran came up...and then he went crazy for a few weeks.
Duvall pre-injury (8 games): .455/.514/1.030
Duvall post-return from injury (17 games): .161/.266/.286
Duran, first 17 games: .417/.456/.683
Duran, since then (44 games): .239/.299/.338
Casas, first 26 games: .128/.281/.282
Casas, since then (45 games): .279/.363/.469
Basically, Casas's dreadful first month coincides virtually to the day with the Ruthian Duvall/Duran CF combo. But in the almost two months since then, Casas has been generally excellent (especially for a rookie), while Duvall/Duran have been pretty awful.
With the pitching, Sale started slow, and then really picked it up...before getting (predictably) injured. Bello's rise to one of the best starters in the league largely coincided with Sale going down...which is so unfortunate, because I was excited about the idea of the two of them anchoring the rotation.
Paxton has really emerged as an above-average starter...as Houck ends up on the injured list until August.
Yoshida has been better than most of us thought he'd be this year...but Devers has struggled to get on base (the HRs are nice!).
Verdugo has bounced back from a slump, and may be an all-star...but our 2B and SS situation is as below-average as Verdugo has been above-average.
You put it all together, and it is a big soup of...80 wins.
Yeah, I think they were not happy with that from the start. So they're not surprised so much as this is confirming to them that the team is again mediocre despite their claims of trying to compete.
Does anyone worry that his good streak just isn't all that great? An .832 OPS is fine and all if in fact that's what he is now. His actual talent level could be more like the .745 he's put up for his career.
It's also pretty disconcerting that, despite his gradual slog toward his current .738 OPS, both Reference and FG still have him at or below replacement level.
I think it's pretty rare for a young guy to improve at a position as he reaches his mid-20s, unless it's one he is just learning.
Well, just speaking for myself, my grumpiness tends to be less influenced by how close the team is to predictions to how dispiriting the past three hours of watching the team is.
When will they get rid of the pitcher W stat? At least they should keep track of quality starts. Both for money reasons and awards reasons. Pitcher wins are so stupid.
1) Sale could stay healthy for two straight months,
2) Bloom could trade for a legit defensive SS as a rental,
3) Story could come back and play strong defense at 2B with some HRs,
you could see how Boston could go on a run, make the playoffs, and then lean in with a playoff rotation of Sale/Bello/Paxton/Whitlock, with a bullpen fortified by Houck and Crawford, back end of Martin and Jansen.
But the defense up the middle has to get better, and Sale has to be healthy. It is so frustrating, because you could see how Sale rounding back into ace-like shape was having positive impacts on the rest of the pitching staff: It takes pressure off the bullpen. It means you could Crawford or Houck and make then a 2-3 inning, twice a week, reliever. And it means Boston is replacing 1-2 starts a week currently going to Garza, Ort, or Dermody types, and give them to Sale instead.
But wishing for a healthy Chris Sale is like wishing for unicorns. The best ability remains...availability.
Man, I'm Mr. Optimistic this year but even I'm really skeptical about them competing now. They aren't terribly far back but they have a bunch of teams ahead of them.
Friday night, against a pretty good Toronto team, on the road, one of the teams they are chasing for a WC spot, Paxton is brilliant, Justin Turner has two-run HR, Boston wins the game.
Saturday, the Red Sox win again, even as they practically give the game away. Turner has another big day, Crawford looks promising, Jansen self-destructs.
They are now 42-42, 3.5 out of the WC.
Paxton is one of the main reasons Boston is even sticking around the playoff race. But he also has made himself arguably the most valuable trade chip on the market entering the deadline period.
Turner has been fine most of the year - not a lot of power, but he's getting on base, whatever. Lately, he's been lighting it up. Again, he's made himself into a decent trade chip...but he's part of why we're hanging around.
If they win something like five of their final seven before the break (not that crazy - three are at home against Oakland), then they are 47-44, probably 2.5 out of the WC. I don't think the REd Sox are really going anywhere, but...how do wave the white flag on the season at that point? Bloom could be in a "you can't win for trying" situation here.
Bello is a revelation. And if Devers is finally rounding into form (that was the talk from the radio team last night) that bodes very well for lifting the whole lineup. if he hits .300 for a month or two and everybody else hangs around their .800 OPSs . . . that's a formula for lotsa runs, which balances out the sometimes shaky (and snakebit) pitching staff.
So with a 43-42 record, what would it take over the final 21 games before the deadline to convince you the Red Sox should be buyers (or at least not sellers)?
For me, it would be something like:
-- A 14-7 record, making them 57-49. That would likely get them within a game or so of a spot, and with fewer teams ahead of them.
-- Good news on Whitlock and Yoshida's injuries.
-- Continued health of Paxton.
-- Enough continued progress from Story and Sale that as of the deadline, neither has had a setback and both are expected back imminently.
That's a tall order, I realize. But I really think that's what needs to happen for them to have a real shot at a playoff spot. What would being a buyer look like? I'm not even sure. If the above happens, the rotation looks like this:
Sale
Bello
Paxton
Whitlock
Crawford (maybe Houck at some point)
You can probably list the first three in any order. But that looks like a competitive rotation. Similarly, if Story is back playing SS, the lineup doesn't have any glaring holes either. And the pen looks at least pretty solid if not very good. I guess the most likely move would be cash in some redundant pieces (CF, 2B, and ???) to try to acquire a cost-controlled #2-ish starter. This protects you against losing Sale or Paxton and it helps you in the future as well.
"If" and "might be".
I would be happy to see him there as well. The Sox have been even worse at 2B than SS. I feel like Story locks down 2B, then the Sox throw the old pu pu platter at SS and they gain 2.5 wins (+2 from Story, +.5 from SS) instead of a mediocre Story at SS and a still mediocre to shitty 2B giving them maybe +1.5 wins.
Did any projection system have Yoshida as being this good with the wood?
His 50th percentile ZiPS projection had him pegged at .305/.372/.489 (131 wRC+). His 60th percentile projection was .313/.379/.500 (135 wRC+).
That said, the real positive news for Red Sox fans is that they are exceeding modest expectations because of strong performances from players who may actually be part of the next excellent Red Sox run:
- Casas had a tough first month; since May 3rd (55 games, 204 PAs), Casas has 9 HRs and a slash line of .278/.358/.500.
- Yoshida has been excellent, again, after a slow start.
- Bello has been outstanding
- Devers was hitting into bad luck (low BABIP) that kept his average down; he is pretty clearly back and looking great
- I don't know if Duran's improvement is sustainable, but he has been a different player most of this year. With his speed and improved defense, he doesn't have to be this good to be valuable.
- Wong has proven that he has value, at least as a long-term backup catcher who has pop and solid defense
- I think a sneaky part of the success is from a quartet of pitchers of whom little was expected, but have found unexpected roles: Pivetta, Walter, Murphy, and Winckowski have all been successful as multi-inning relievers. It has allowed all of them to add a few MPH to their fastballs, narrow their pitching arsenal to fewer types of pitches which they better command, and thus be effective in these "bullpen games". That is what has kept the team afloat while Sale, Whitlock, Houck have been hurt.
I am still amazed that they can compete with such holes at 2B and SS, but it may something about how effective the lineup has been, getting solid production from six positions, plus a little bit from Wong. If this team can go 35-33 the rest of the way and win 85 games, it will make the rest of the season meaningful and fun, all while sacrificing absolutely nothing for the future. Pretty good.
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