BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: World Series Game 3 Reaction: Resurgent Dice K + butt-kicing offense = 1 win away

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1. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:13 AM (#2596882)

Phil, have more children.

2. Dan Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:15 AM (#2596883)

Offense was great, Daisuke was good for 5 like Darren said, but I think Francona pulled him at the right time. Of course, the fact that he chose Lopez to come in is kinda iffy. It seemed like Francona kind of took it for granted for bad the Rockies hitters had been, and he got burned by using a shitty pitcher. I also don't know why he left Timlin in to start the 7th after the 2 outs he got in the 6th were absolutely scorched. It was quite apparent that Timlin didn't have it today.

3. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:15 AM (#2596884)

I literally couldn't sleep after Game 3 of the '04 Series, I wanted them to win it so bad and kept thinking of what could possibly happen this year.

I don't think I'm complacent this year, but Boston has won a pitcher's duel, a blowout early, and a blowout late. Colorado just looks completely overmatched, unlike a really good 2004 Cardinals team that I knew was still very dangerous regardless of being down 3-0.

4. John DiFool2 Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:16 AM (#2596886)

This is why a bunch of kickass kids from the farm system can help you out in a real big way. They are cheap, energizing, often develop like mad before your eyes, and let you save the money for the real good players. I include Youks and Papelbon along with Jake and Dustin in that description. Lord I adore them-every time they do their stuff like tonite my smile is from ear to ear.

Now just stay focused and lock it all up tomorrow night; Lester, your turn to shine.

5. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:17 AM (#2596887)

Forgot to add: first 6-game winning streak of the year. Weird.

6. Xander Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:18 AM (#2596888)

Jacoby Ellsbury is going to be one hell of a seasoned rookie next year. He also has the opportunity to be an icon for an entire group of people for the next ten years. He's also pretty good.

7. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:21 AM (#2596890)

Offense was great, Daisuke was good for 5 like Darren said, but I think Francona pulled him at the right time. Of course, the fact that he chose Lopez to come in is kinda iffy. It seemed like Francona kind of took it for granted for bad the Rockies hitters had been, and he got burned by using a shitty pitcher.

Yes, I think he pulled Dice right when he needed to. If anything his hook was a hair quick, but probably not. But no, he didn't burned by bringing in what he thought was a crappy pitcher. Francona has repeatedly demonstrated throughout the year that he believes that Lopez is one of his best relievers. He always uses him in tight spots. He got burned not because of hubris but because he has wrongly decided that Lopez is good.

It's an interesting contract between MDC and Lopez. Lopez cannot lose his important role no matter how he pitches. Meanwhile, Delcarmen was very quickly 'demoted' after one terrible game and one mediocre-to-bad one.

8. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:23 AM (#2596891)

With Lester being a strikeout/fly ball pitcher, should Francona channel Davey Johnson and use an infield of 1B Ortiz, 2B Pedroia, SS Lowell, 3B Youkilis for Game 4? If infield defense costs you the game, you're still up 3-1 with Beckett pitching Game 5, and you don't do that kind of alignment again.

I'm thinking get all the big bats in against the guy who doesn't strike anyone out, hasn't pitched in 2-1/2 months, try to build a big early lead, and get the crowd out of it.

9. Brandon in MO (Yunitility Infielder) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:26 AM (#2596894)

so, 20 of 21 in the NL is like 12 of 21 in the AL?

10. Mike Hampton's #1 Fan Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:27 AM (#2596895)

Matsuzaka probably just made himself a couple of million dollars in endorsements in Japan.

11. ekogan Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:31 AM (#2596896)

Does it seem like the Red Sox are toying with their opponent?
It's seems like when they got the six run lead they let up on scoring so that the Rockies wouldn't be embarrased,
then, when the game got close again, tacked on some runs easily

12. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:44 AM (#2596899)

so is this the only place to discuss the world series on this site..??
in the red sox forum? great

#### the red sox.

13. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:48 AM (#2596901)

With Lester being a strikeout/fly ball pitcher, should Francona channel Davey Johnson and use an infield of 1B Ortiz, 2B Pedroia, SS Lowell, 3B Youkilis for Game 4? If infield defense costs you the game, you're still up 3-1 with Beckett pitching Game 5, and you don't do that kind of alignment again.

Absolutely not. If tehre's anybody on this team that needs DPs turned, it's Jon Lester.

14. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:49 AM (#2596902)

so is this the only place to discuss the world series on this site..??
in the red sox forum? great

#### the red sox.

Your contribution, as always, is appreciated.

15. John DiFool2 Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:50 AM (#2596903)

I like that ballsy move, Two-Oh!. Probably won't happen but would be fun to watch; you still have the defensive replacements lurking on the bench.

ekogan, I've seen what seems like "toying" from great teams in the past-the one which sticks in my mind was a hockey club, the 1980's Edmonton Oilers, a team definitely from a higher league, and they would do that kind of thing all the time, then blow them away late. Probably not intentional in the slightest, butwhatthehelldoIknow.

16. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:53 AM (#2596905)

Your contribution, as always, is appreciated.

Geez, I guess. Isn't this the same guy who just said Rockies fans were an endangered species...just prior to the Rockies knocking his team out of the playoffs?

17. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:54 AM (#2596907)

Hey don't get me wrong, I would love it if the Padres would buy a world series, just to say they could. but they can't now can they?

So, if I got this right, the two most expensive teams to win a world series are .. Boston, and Boston.

congrats on buying another series.

18. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:56 AM (#2596908)

Rockies fans were an endangered species

I don't remember saying that, but I do agree that they are an endangered species.

19. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:57 AM (#2596909)

So, if I got this right, the two most expensive teams to win a world series are .. Boston, and Boston.

congrats on buying another series.

The sad thing is that we would have been better off had we NOT signed Lugo.

20. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:59 AM (#2596910)

Geez, I guess. Isn't this the same guy who just said Rockies fans were an endangered species...just prior to the Rockies knocking his team out of the playoffs?

I don't remember that. I just know he's the guy who says things like, say, 17.

21. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:00 AM (#2596913)

Thanks JDF2. As to Lester needing DP's, he only had 3 turned behind him in 11 starts this year. He may need them but he doesn't get them. I still like my chances with a Game 4 lineup designed for maximum offense. Put it away early.

22. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:05 AM (#2596916)

The sad thing is that we would have been better off had we NOT signed Lugo.

Nice.
Boston should lend some of that front office moxy to the Cubs, so we don't have to listen there fans whine anymore.

Personally I wouldn't mind the Sox so much if there fans were at least somewhat humble.
If they would at least realize what a gift it is to be able to throw 50 million dollars at a pitcher just to talk to him. If they would at least realize what an unfair advantage they have. That Ballpark. That joke of a division.

that, and they have a major sports network, "The world wide leader", who simply caters to them. Helps them build that fanbase ...

its nauseating to be honest.

I love baseball. But I could never be a fan of that!
Its not baseball. Its financial domination over your opponents. Its Forumla 1.
Its not even enjoyable. Sure, for you it is, but for fans of the other 27-28 teams, its gets old and it gets boring year in and year out.

so yeah, #### the sox.

23. Mike Hampton's #1 Fan Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:07 AM (#2596917)

Hey! These Cheerios have urine in them.

24. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:07 AM (#2596918)

Does anybody know what's going on?

25. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:09 AM (#2596919)

With Lester being a strikeout/fly ball pitcher, should Francona channel Davey Johnson and use an infield of 1B Ortiz, 2B Pedroia, SS Lowell, 3B Youkilis for Game 4? If infield defense costs you the game, you're still up 3-1 with Beckett pitching Game 5, and you don't do that kind of alignment again.

I guess I look at it this way. You could throw just about any sensible defensive configuration out there and the Red Sox should wrap up this series in no more than five games. If you went with the one above, and lose, you'd be inviting all kinds of second-guessing and distractions that just aren't necessary at this point. I'd stick with the same lineup for Game 4.

26. Chip Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:24 AM (#2596924)

Yeah. Look at all that money Ellsbury and Pedroia cost them. They sure did buy that 7-10 combined tonight.

27. Dan Posted: October 28, 2007 at 06:36 AM (#2596925)

Its not even enjoyable. Sure, for you it is, but for fans of the other 27-28 teams, its gets old and it gets boring year in and year out.

What team do fans of the other 29 teams enjoy watching dominate? If the Twins or Marlins or Pirates with their shoestring payrolls were somehow dominating through ungodly drafting, development, and scouting, are you saying that the fans of other teams would be excited to watch them roll over random team B in the playoffs? No one enjoys dominant playoff series except for fans of the dominating team, or people who hate the team being dominated. This is hardly news.

28. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: October 28, 2007 at 07:07 AM (#2596934)

Guys, enjoy your moment. It is wrong of me to piss on your parade.
We have the next six months to discuss the evil Red Sox spending their dollars.

Rings = respect.
congrats on another ring.

29. Phil Coorey. Posted: October 28, 2007 at 07:51 AM (#2596942)

Phil, have more children.

Tell me about it! 6-0 baby!!

I've never seen Gambling Rent so angry. I'd still be pissed after the playoff game fiasco as well.

30. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 12:57 PM (#2596959)

Phil, is it too late to name the kids Mystique and Aura?

31. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:04 PM (#2596962)

He doesn't want them to grow up to be porn stars you idiot.

32. walt williams bobblehead Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:30 PM (#2596963)

its gets old and it gets boring year in and year out.

I assume that's why the Red Sox have let the White Sox and Cardinals win the last two years, just to annoy Cub fans.

33. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:30 PM (#2596965)

I'm tired of people making sweeping statements about Red Sox fans. It's stupid and lame.

34. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:31 PM (#2596966)

Now is the time for pants pissers and optimists to unite and rejoice, for the series is over. It's been over since the end of Game 2.

IIRC, I didn't predict a WS win until very recently. All the August and September talk about "pants pissing" did not imply that the Red Sox were going to win the WS. The division, yes, but not the WS. No one could have predicted a WS win with certainty. Anyone who picked the Red Sox to win it all were lucky, and nothing more. The playoffs are a crapshoot, all reasonable people agree about that.

What this means is that I am no better than anyone else when it comes to picking playoff winners. Also, it means that I am no worse. Anyone who says they are is full of poop. I think there's a random distribution of success in predictions. Make a prediction or 3, and you may get lucky. The more you make, the more you get closer to 50/50. It's all a coin flip.

Let this be a lesson to us all. No more pants pissing. Enjoy the moments. ;-)

35. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:33 PM (#2596969)

And to all the "haters" out there: [blank stare][/blank stare]

36. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:35 PM (#2596971)

Maybe the real lesson is that we shouldn't call people pants pissers. :)

37. Captain Joe Bivens, Pointless and Wonderful Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:46 PM (#2596977)

You can't deny that there was some unwarranted worry about this team.

You all need to channel Manny. No worries. Enjoy.

38. villageidiom Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:48 PM (#2596979)

RE: Lopez. Name a scenario in which you'd use him if you were manager. And don't say you wouldn't put him on the roster or wouldn't use him, because the former isn't your choice as manager and the latter isn't a realistic choice. Two runners on, 1 out, 6th inning, SIX RUN LEAD, 6-7-8 hitters coming up (including Hawpe)... I fail to see why he's a bad choice there. If MDC and even Timlin are better pitchers, do you use them with a six-run lead, or save them for when they're needed (later in the same game, or in the next game)? I think the latter.

39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 28, 2007 at 01:57 PM (#2596984)

Two runners on, 1 out, 6th inning, SIX RUN LEAD, 6-7-8 hitters coming up (including Hawpe)... I fail to see why he's a bad choice there.

I would let him face one batter. He is a loogy. He throws underhand, with low velocity, and throws mainly sinkers and sliders. He is not good at getting RHP out. No pitcher with his characteristics has ever been good at that.

What I don't understand is Tito's and Theo's apparent decision not to use their loogy as a loogy. They keep putting Lopez in situations to fail, and he keeps failing. (In fairness, he also keeps failing even to get the first LHB out.)

I fail to see why he's a bad choice there. If MDC and even Timlin are better pitchers, do you use them with a six-run lead, or save them for when they're needed (later in the same game, or in the next game)? I think the latter.

There were 3.2 innings remaining in a World Series game. You have four relievers who are better than Lopez. Between those four relievers, surely you can get 3.2 innings. In the regular season, ok, get the rest your guys need for the long haul. In the world series, you use your best pitchers to win the game.

40. covelli chris p Posted: October 28, 2007 at 02:45 PM (#2597021)

Two runners on, 1 out, 6th inning, SIX RUN LEAD, 6-7-8 hitters coming up (including Hawpe)...

the 6th hitter is hawpe, right? if that's the case, yeah, it's a good time to bring in lopez. BUT like, MCA says, when he doesn't get hawpe out and there's a righty up, you should take him out.

41. Textbook Editor Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:04 PM (#2597034)

Don't know where else to put this, but Richard Ford dings Tim McCarver (and other sports media types) in today's NYTimes "Play" Magazine. Interesting read:

Ford on Sports Media

42. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:07 PM (#2597036)

Why did Papelbon come back out for the 9th? I don't actually think Gagne or Snyder are good, but you'd think they coudl have gotten 3 outs wihtout giving up more than 3 runs.

43. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:09 PM (#2597039)

Because it's the frickin' World Series, wok.

44. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:10 PM (#2597040)

It's also the frickin' World Series the game tomorrow too.

45. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:15 PM (#2597044)

I think Papelbon pitched the 9th because if you take him out and depend on the dregs of the bullpen to finish the game, if Colorado hits either or both like you'd expect then there's no shutdown reliever to stop the rally. I hope Francona learned his lesson having to turn to Gagne to preserve a tie in the 11th in the ALCS, seeing how that experiment turned out.

Win today's game today. Worry about tomorrow's game tomorrow.

46. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:16 PM (#2597045)

I agree with MC's take there except for his misuse of 'between.'

Also, do you really think that Francona has no say about who's on the roster? I would think he'd at least have some input.

47. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:17 PM (#2597047)

I hope Francona learned his lesson having to turn to Gagne to preserve a tie in the 11th in the ALCS, seeing how that experiment turned out.

He had nobody to go to that game. For once I coudln't blame Francona.

Edit: i'm not arguing for the competence of Snyder or Gagne. But if the back of your bullpen cannot hold a FIVE RUN LEAD with 3 outs, they should just off themselves.

I would have trusted Tavarez with that lead. Maybe my trust is misplaced.

48. Baldrick Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:23 PM (#2597050)

Why did Papelbon come back out for the 9th? I don't actually think Gagne or Snyder are good, but you'd think they coudl have gotten 3 outs wihtout giving up more than 3 runs.

Game 2 - ALCS.

Also, there's (at most) 4 more games possible in the whole year. Papelbon can throw 20 more pitches.

49. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:23 PM (#2597051)

Also, do you really think that Francona has no say about who's on the roster? I would think he'd at least have some input.

Me? I think they work it out together.

I figure all general usage patterns are a function of an agreement between Theo and Tito. Lopez has had the general usage pattern of an Embree-style lefty rather than a Myers-style loogy. It's possible that Tito has demanded to use the pitcher this way and Theo has relented, but I see no reason to assume that, or to think it's any more likely than the opposite. I similarly see no reason to assume that it's Tito's call over Theo's objections to put Lopez on the roster. I mean, Official Sabermetric Orthodoxy now holds that loogies are good. (see The Book.)

50. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:25 PM (#2597054)

I hope Theo will find a LOOGY that's actually good next year. This year it was probably supposed to be Okajima, but then we all know what happeneed.

Actually, Theo better find another relief ace this offseason, and not just a LOOGY, because Okajima will definitely regress in 2008. He'll still be good enough to be put into the high-leverage SHORT reliever role, but there is no way he can keep up the workload he has now and be this good.

51. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 03:26 PM (#2597055)

Well, it holds that good loogies are good. Bad loogies are still considered bad.

52. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:00 PM (#2597086)

Now is the time for pants pissers and optimists to unite and rejoice, for the series is over. It's been over since the end of Game 2.

Did you even watch the game today? Our bullpen was fooling NOBODY today. NOBODY. Lopez stunk as usual, Timlin got F!@## rocked and needed LUGO to bail him out, Okajima threw 29 pitches today, this is going to go well, Manny D has lost the strike zone (I'd go back to him btw), and Hawpe hit a TRIPLE off a Papelbon.

Our best pitcher today was Matsuzaka, who really helped himself with his glove and his bat. *shudder*

Edit: The only reasons we won today are the twins. C'mon girls, you got one more game in you!

53. dave h Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2597097)

Did you even watch the game today? Our bullpen was fooling NOBODY today. NOBODY. Lopez stunk as usual, Timlin got F!@## rocked and needed LUGO to bail him out, Okajima threw 29 pitches today, this is going to go well, Manny D has lost the strike zone (I'd go back to him btw), and Hawpe hit a TRIPLE off a Papelbon.

All this, and the Sox won by 5...

54. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:22 PM (#2597100)

because of some good defense and incredible lack of Colorado BABIP in our favour (for once)

55. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:24 PM (#2597101)

Wok,

The pen didn't do well yesterday but it was 1 game. They're in pretty good shape, I'd say.

56. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:26 PM (#2597104)

The twins still inspire more confidence in me then the team though, not sure about you guys.

57. Darren

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:53 PM (#2597128)

The twins are responsible for this teams first 6-game winning streak of 07, so yes, they're powers are amazing. We should call them the Wondertwins. Wondertwin powers, activate!

58. TVerik - Dr. Velocity Posted: October 28, 2007 at 04:56 PM (#2597130)

Did Wok ever abandon the "Veronica" nickname?

59. Sam M. Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:18 PM (#2597146)

When did Wok become Vaux II?

60. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: October 28, 2007 at 05:33 PM (#2597151)

Did Wok ever abandon the "Veronica" nickname?

I didn't use it often because he hasn't been very good, but I yelled Veronica when he hit that grand slam. Also, I would have written a cheque for 100 bucks if that Jimmy Fund kid who announced the lineup that day called JD Veronica Mars.

61. tfbg9 Posted: October 28, 2007 at 07:03 PM (#2597194)

No. The Gold Dust Twins. Like Rice and Lynn.

62. Rough Carrigan

Posted: October 28, 2007 at 08:33 PM (#2597221)

congrats on buying another series.

Congrats on your "legendary" closer pissing his pants three times in three tries to get your team into the playoffs!

63. Phil Coorey. Posted: October 28, 2007 at 11:19 PM (#2597282)

Saw the girls this morning guys, they are keen to make this 7-0.

After all ,like Manny says...they are professionals!!!

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